 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-11-08 15:26
Here's an interesting article on hand injuries caused by playing minimalist "music." One string player says the repeated notes in Beethoven's Eroica also cause pain.
http://www.newmusicbox.org/article.nmbx?id=5318
So in addition to the feeling of asphyxiation I get from minimalist pieces, here's another reason to avoid it.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-11-08 16:18
Like the composer with a boring, work of dissonance at this year's ClarinetFest who responded to criticism that it goes nowhere by retorting that the listeners just don't have an appreciation for his subtlety.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Mark G Simon
Date: 2007-11-08 17:59
Why the quotes around "music"? Steve Reich is a great composer! And New York Counterpoint is a blast to play.
Clarinetist, composer, arranger of music for clarinet ensemble
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-11-08 18:26
The only reason I didn't boo John Bruce Yeh's performance of New York Counterpoint" at the ClarinetFest a few years ago was that he announced he was playing it in memoriam for a friend. I called it "music" because it doesn't have enough music in it to be called music. Just my opinion, of course, but if I never hear it again, it will be too soon.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Mark G Simon
Date: 2007-11-08 18:34
In my experience, New York Counterpoint gets a great audience reception. It did when I played it. I've also attended performances of it by Richard Stoltzman and David Krakauer, and both times one could see heads in the audience bobbing in time to the music. I'm sorry you don't enjoy the piece, but you're in the minority
Clarinetist, composer, arranger of music for clarinet ensemble
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Author: Mark G Simon
Date: 2007-11-08 19:07
In addition, the article doesn't even attempt to claim that minimalist music causes injuries to players. It starts with the premise that 65 percent of music students at a particular college suffer from performance injuries. These are musicians just in the process of learning their instruments, including how to take care of their hands. They are competitive, trying to outpractice their rivals on their instruments. And their primary repertory is traditional music, not minimalism.
Since the publication is one aimed at composers, the article goes on to discuss the levels of awareness among composers about the need to consider the performer's well-being when writing music. One paragraph cites players who have found the music of Glass too taxing, and have found a solution (switch off every eight bars).
The real problem about musician injuries cannot be laid at the feet of any modern composer. Rather it is the increasing expectations for perfection among musicians playing the standard repertory. It is a problem that will not be solved by bashing straw men with pen and music paper in their hands.
I wonder why no one has ever used Gary Graffman or Leon Fleischer as a reason to stop performing Romantic piano concertos?
Clarinetist, composer, arranger of music for clarinet ensemble
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2007-11-08 19:30
Hey, don't be hating! (FWIW, I get a similar feeling of asphyxiation during some Romantic pieces :P)
In any case, that's what happens when you write too much ostinato for string players, rather than assigning it to the true masters of repetitive arpeggio playing: the clarinetists.
I'm with Mark on this one... IMHO the uber-perfectionism is largely to blame.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: brycon
Date: 2007-11-08 21:55
Have you guys ever been to a Cage performance? I can't imagine what your reaction would be if Reich inspires this much dislike. I personally like some Reich, but the best minimalist (in my opinion) is John Adams.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2007-11-08 22:16
Cage is a whole other realm (best enjoyed with mushrooms??)... wouldn't lump him in with a discussion of minimalism (though I don't think that was your intent).
My Cage tolerance is pretty low, except when I'm in the right mood, in which case it's high. My thoughts on Cage is that, philosophically, it's a great idea, but going to a performance of Cage is like going to hear a simplified, abridged version of walking outside and listening, which I find far more interesting.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2007-11-08 22:29
Worst piece that I know of on the hands is the Schubert Erlkönig for Piano. Constant repetition of octaves hundreds of times.
Holy crap is that hard on the hands. There are alternate fingerings, but they make it even harder than it already is.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: LonDear
Date: 2007-11-09 00:50
There are so many facets of being a musician that can be hard on our hands; carrying contras, toting PA systems, trying to get that stuck barrel off. On the other hand, keeping your hands active with the kind of activity we do can postpone arthritis for many years.
I can't fault any composer for not keeping a clarinetist's health in mind. There are so many good clarinet players out here that it would be better to have players double or triple up on the same part to avoid pain. Pit orchestras are a different matter completely from the pieces discussed here - keep the number of players low and the instrument count per player high.
If Ken's original post was meant in jest, I apologize for the serious bent. I have just never played anything that made my hands hurt; only my brain and lungs. OK, sometimes my right thumb hurts, but that doesn't matter, does it? (rhetorical)
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Author: ChrisArcand
Date: 2007-11-09 03:54
Does this include brass in pretty much any classical or Beethoven symphony? I heard Beethoven 7 the other day and it hit me ever harder just how bored out of my mind I would be sitting there playing trumpet ....CA
Updated for spelling
Post Edited (2007-11-09 03:55)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-11-09 10:58
How many string players playing Philip Glass pieces get RSI playing all those repeated thirds for what seems to be an eternity?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2007-11-09 12:13
I must say that i've never had a problem playing Phillip Glass. A few years back I did Sataya Grahara (excuse spelling), this Opera was typical. The only hard thing about it was remembering the repeats within repeats.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-11-09 13:08
For great minimalistic music (and a great film) watch Koyaanisqatsi. Though I guess people who don't like minimalistic music won't like it much, and I can think of some reason why some poeple wouldn't like the film. I watched it a long time ago and didn't like it much or the music. Then I watched it again after I understood music much better, and like it a lot!
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-11-09 18:37
One of the most dangerous pieces for pianists is just about the opposite of minimalist: It's the Brahms Bb concerto, aka "the Baby Flattener." The 4th finger of the right hand takes a terrible beating in that piece. A great many young pianists have developed carpal tunnel system while obsessively practicing the long, long trills over and over and over. I've heard that Leon Fleischer's focal dystonia got started with his preparations to record the Bb concerto with Szell and the Cleveland Orch. Magnificent performance, may it never go out of print, but what a price he paid. Botox injections and exercises finally let him back into the concert hall a few years ago.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-11-09 19:09
With classic repertoire, we clarinettists face these riffs every year - rearrangements for wind bands usually remap violin and viola parts to us. Which means 1/16th C-Eb-F-D-Eb-C-D-B fiddlings for hours on end (or so it seems). Makes me wonder what the other five fingers are for...
--
Ben
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Author: Ski
Date: 2007-11-10 07:18
While piano music is being mentioned, try on Liszt's "Funerailles" for size if you want to develop tendonitis in your left arm. And a particularly effective acceleration of this malady is the instruction of a piano teacher who insists that the left pinky and thumb individually articulate the notes of incredibly fast left-hand octave passages such that each note speaks with clarity.
I also regularly develop a cleaved nail on my right index finger when playing rock-oriented piano parts, and routinely rip the skin off the side of that same finger when I play Hammond organ glissandi. These things take a week or more to heal. And my forearms tighten up when I work the brush hog for long periods of time when clearing trails on my property too. But the show must go on!
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Author: marcgilly
Date: 2007-11-10 13:27
My little finger took a bit of a beating earlier on this year when I played Revueltas' "Sensemaya". The piece starts with a semiquaver (16th note?) trill-like pattern of bottom Eb and E on the bass clarinet. I can't describe the relief that washes over you when it finally jumps up an octave about a page and a half into the piece! I ended up having to adjust my thumbrest and sit at a funny angle to reduce the pain which would spread up the outside of my arm.
If you're not familiar with the piece, you can hear it here (hooray for AltaVista's mp3 search function!). The bass clarinet part is only really detectable as a low rumble at that point, though.
Pain withstanding, I grew to quite like the piece. It's certainly very powerful.
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Author: Gregory Wanamaker
Date: 2007-11-10 16:02
Interesting thread. Excellent points by Alex and Mark especially.
As a composer who has written works in collaboration with performers who specifically asked for physical and technical boundaries to be pushed, I believe that it is every composer's responsibility to be sure that their works are not only of a high quality (Mr. Shaw as well as others clearly have strong feelings about what this means) but also safe - IF s/he would like the work performed.
It is the performer's responsibility to play or not to play any work s/he does not feel is of appropriate quality (again, whatever that means) or unsafe.
Only 3 of the 24 paragraphs of the excellent article Mr. Shaw cites even mention minimalism. They are consecutive paragraphs in the first third of the article, a fact that even without reading the article should lead most readers to believe that the article is not about the potential damage minimalism might have on a performer.
I think that what Mr. Shaw really wanted to say is that he hates this so-called minimalism. This article gave him the opportunity to do so relevantly.
Although quotes around the word music are neither necessary nor relevant.
Gregory Wanamaker
http://www.gregorywanamaker.com
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-11-10 23:54
> Composers compose minimalistic music when they have little to say
> musically......
I'm not sure I follow you there, David. I'd file Phil Glass' "Photographer" under "minimal", but I don't perceive it lacking musicality. (I wouldn't want to play the spinal backing parts with a clarinet, though)
--
Ben
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2007-11-11 00:06
On the contrary, minimalism can allow the composer to say an incredible amount with very little material. If anything, it can maximize the possibilities of a supposedly simple idea.
Granted, it doesn't always do that...
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2007-11-11 00:36
Last year I performed a minimalist piece. While it takes economy in regard to material to a new level, I feel that the effect this music can have on an audience should not be ignored. If you think about it, your audience is the reason why we exist. We are entertainers, and should never forget this. Often we do, and some people get a dangerous, ignorant attitude about what really matters. I'd rather not play American Soldier, Bravura, National Emblem, Washington Post, and Queen City ad nauseum. There are people that love hearing marching music, and that's a huge part of my job...so I just keep on trucking.
The minimalist piece I performed was Arvo Pärt's Spiegel im Spiegel. I found it incredibly exhausting. It went over better than anything else on the program, which included masterworks such as the Bach A minor Flute Partita, the Schubert "Arpeggione" Sonata and the Prokofiev Flute Sonata. It was a transcription recital.
Christopher Nichols, D.M.A.
Assistant Professor of Clarinet
University of Delaware
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Author: brycon
Date: 2007-11-11 01:46
If pieces containing very little material are considered non-music then I think a lot of other composers would have to be lumped into the group of non-composers along with Glass, Adams, Reich, Riley, etc.
One that immediately comes to my mind is Beethoven. The material for the entire first movement of the Pastoral Symphony is derived from the very first phrase. In fact this movement has (if I remember correctly) only one minor chord. Even Philip Glass has more than one minor chord per 10 minutes of music.
Another composer that uses very little material in his works is Webern. The Variations for Orchestra, for instance, is constructed using only one motif that is a measly four notes in length. Despite the lack of musical material, both of these works are masterpieces of symphonic literature that were created by two of the greatest composers in music history. I'm sure there are more examples that one could bring up, but these were the first two that immediately came to my mind.
I don't think that minimalism is the greatest music, but I do think that is has precedence in the course of music history. I also don't think everyone should like it, but you should at least respect it for what it is (namely music) and not boo performers that choose to play it. The world would be a very boring place if only Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, and Brahms were played.
Post Edited (2007-11-11 03:30)
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Author: Gregory Wanamaker
Date: 2007-11-11 15:09
Perhaps Mr. Blumberg would also like to make a blanket statement against the Raga music of India, or the canon of West African drum literature - two of the many influences that created this so-called minimalism - simply because he may not "get it."
About 100 years ago, there were plenty of people with similar attitudes who hated Debussy's music which was influenced by the Balanese Gamelan and music of he Far East.
For some it was enough to say, "I don't get it because I don't want to get it."
Others allowed Debussy's beautiful music the possibility to live and breathe.
Who knows what will happen to so-called minimalism? Public opinion seems to favor minimalist music. Maybe it will stick around.
Of course public opinon favored "The Piña Colada Song" for a little while. Don't worry... Maybe it'll go away.
All in good fun,
Gregory Wanamaker
http://www.gregorywanamaker.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2007-11-11 15:55
By the way, your Saxophone Quartet mvt II. Scherzo Psycho is cool. As a broad painting of the minimilistic genre I don't like it, but there are still some pieces which I do/can enjoy.
I really don't like Reich at all though from what I have heard.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Gregory Wanamaker
Date: 2007-11-11 17:09
Thanks for the comments, David! I don't consider anything I write to be minimalist at all, but the Scherzo Psycho was certainly influenced by pop music.
I certainly wasn't advocating for minimalism as a genre - I just try to find the value in some of the music I don't understand only becuse I think that it is a part of my job. I am not a huge Steve Reich fan - although I think his Different Trains is an amazing emotional statement regarding the holocaust - and not what I would call minimalist at all.
All good things,
Gregory Wanamaker
http://www.gregorywanamaker.com
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Author: JVH
Date: 2012-08-20 16:10
Hi there!
I am working on an arrangement of Sensemaya. The score has the part in bass clef. Should I be transposing all the notes a whole step down (is it in Bb)? So, that opening trill is D#-E, but it sounds a whole step lower?
Thanks,
Jeremy
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2012-08-20 20:51
I tend to judge music on how interesting it would be to sit in the orchestra and play the piece. The other day I was listening on the radio to a work by John Adams and, while I found it pleasant as background music, the thought occurred to me that with its repetition and nearly constant loud brass playing, it would be miserable to perform (for just about everyone in the orchestra, not just the clarinets). I get that same impression with a lot of 'new' music --- but then again I find it just as boring to play Beethoven symphonies, with all of THEIR repetition. And don't get me started on Mozart, who seems to end every phrase with the same figure (you know which one I'm talking about, ends with a trill followed by a turn).
Nobody needs to get hearing damage, carpal tunnel or tendinitis from playing music, that's for sure. Whatever the music.
Now somebody needs to write a Mahler-esque symphony based on The Captain & Tennille's "Muskrat Love". I'm waiting............
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2012-08-21 13:22
Resurrection of the thread gives me a chance to correct an error I made in 2007, when I wrote, regarding the Brahms Bb piano concerto with its long,, repetitive trills,
> I've heard that Leon Fleischer's focal dystonia got started with his preparations to record the Bb concerto with Szell and the Cleveland Orch. Magnificent performance, may it never go out of print, but what a price he paid. Botox injections and exercises finally let him back into the concert hall a few years ago.>
This story has been passed around among music critics for decades, but recently, Leon Fleischer said in several interviews and also in print that it's untrue. Practicing the Brahms Bb concerto (with its long, long trills) did not cause his focal distonia. Over-practicing in general did the damage.
With the clarinet, I wonder whether the bigger risk may not be from practicing repetitive music but from practicing *any* music for too long at a time. This is anecdotal evidence, not a scientific finding, but most of the clarinet-related injuries I've heard about involve the right thumb, from the strain of supporting the weight of the instrument on the thumb rest.
That being said, I'm not crazy about ultra-repetitive music from the aesthetic point of view.
Knock-knock.
Who's there?
Knock-knock.
WHO'S THERE?
Knock-knock.
WHO THE HELL IS THERE!?
Phil-lip Glass Glass Glass Glass Glass.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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