 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jaysne
Date: 2007-10-24 22:54
I was looking over the clarinet book for Verdi's Rigoletto, and it calls for Bb, A, and C clarinets.
Why would that be necessary? There is only one section calling for the A horn; why not just play it on Bb? And why orchestrate for the somewhat obscure C horn (about half the book is in C)?
I believe that one reason this is done is to keep the Bb player from playing in hefty key signatures. But do the orchestrators also do it because the somewhat different timbre of the A and C horns are what they want in a particular piece? Did Verdi himself call for Bb, A and C horns?
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Author: kilo
Date: 2007-10-25 00:19
Berlioz, according to something I once read, probably in the liner notes for a vinyl recording, specifically voiced a part in the "Witches Round Dance" in Symphonie Fantastique for C clarinet because of its "weak sound".
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-10-25 00:43
(Disclaimer - I am seller of the Forte' Bb and C clarinets)
The C clarinet is used extensively in the opera works presumably because it has the sound spectrum closest to the female soprano voice and is used often as a counterpoint to phrases of the opera singers. I would not say that the sound of a good C clarinet is "weak" either and the altissimo is often used for strong accent phrases in the opera story.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-10-25 08:28
It was VERY common throughout the 19th Century for composers to score for C clarinet in their works (as well as Bb and A) as a matter of course, even if the C part happens to be playable on both a Bb or an A clarinet. The C clarinet was mostly used in tonic keys of C and G Major (and their relative minors).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2007-10-25 16:11
L. Omar Henderson wrote:
“The C clarinet is used extensively in the opera works presumably because it has the sound spectrum closest to the female soprano voice and is used often as a counterpoint to phrases of the opera singers.”
Omar, who said that?
The normal setup in the 18th and most of the 19th centuries was A, Bb and C. And this was as Jaysne correctly indicates for key signature reasons. If some pieces happened to correspond well with a soprano voice it was probably more like pure luck and nothing that composers necessarily were thinking of intentionally. Figaro in Rossini’s “The Barber of Seville” is not a soprano.
Alphie
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-10-25 18:46
A good article on the use of the C clarinet in the Cambridge Companion is: Here
which speaks to the use of the C clarinet for tonality reasons as well as key signatures.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Jaysne
Date: 2007-10-26 13:42
Wow! What a neat article. So much good information. Thanks!
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Author: Jaysne
Date: 2007-10-27 17:34
This discussion about the differences between the clarinets made me think of an excerpt I read in an article about some famous orchestral clarinet player. He was quoted as saying that, rather than purchase an A clarinet, for years he had sight-transposed A parts on his Bb. His thinking was that it's basically the same horn, so as long as one is able to sight-transpose, you don't need to purchase the second one.
Well, after buying an A last year and getting to know the horn, I have to say that he is wrong. The A is a completely different horn in sound, timbre and feel. I find when I go from A to Bb, the difference is like switching from tenor sax to alto.
I did sight-transpose once when I was playing second clarinet part--in A, played on a Bb--in a performance of the Mendelssohn violin concerto. I didn't have an A because I didn't have the money. The sight-transposing was a great experience and opened up my ears and mind as to how notes are different from pitches. Once you get the hang of it, sight-transposing is really cool. But I feel that if a composer specifies a certain instrument, there is a good reason for it, and you should use that horn.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-10-28 08:48
I got called a cheat a while back for playing an A clarinet where the key signature was in five sharps for a Bb clarinet with all fast runs. Now I wouldn't mind (he says), but the person calling me a cheat played a tricky clarinet part on soprano sax. But at least I still used a clarinet for a part that specified clarinet (and an A clarinet is still a clarinet), and not a completely different instrument.
To me, the whole philosophy of clarinet playing is to make it as easy for yourself as you can, even if that means playing things on an A in certain situations (or a Bb in others, or even a C or Eb if you feel like it) to make things much simpler.
It's not cheating - it's being resourceful.
And stick two fingers up at the stuck up snobs at the same time.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-28 09:37
To refer to the original question- I would say it was written like that to make it easier to play for the then primative clarinet.
As for tone of Bb and A- I notice the same difference between any 2 Bb's or any 2 A's. I wouldn't say that and A really has such a different sound than the Bb.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2007-10-28 09:51
>I would say it was written like that to make it easier to play for the then >primative clarinet.
I tend to agree. I can see a parallel evolution of our instrument where, instead of all the wonderful keywork and intricacies of full Boehm and Oehler systems, simple clarinets were manufactured in a variety of keys and we simply acquired a half dozen or so to handle any tricky key signatures. I think it's unfortunate that saxophones are primarily Bb and Eb instruments, one pitched in a sharp key might be useful at times.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-28 10:07
The original set of saxophones were Bb and Eb for military band and C and F for orchestra.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-10-28 10:30
Though the C and F saxes had narrow bores compared to the Bb and Eb ones - compare a C melody with a Bb tenor (ideally from the same make) and you'll see the difference in the bore taper.
I wonder if anyone has made a soprano or tenor sax pitched in A?
But as saxes can be played much more fluently in extreme keys (well, I find I can get around in extreme keys much easier on sax than on any other instrument I play) there's probably hardly any need.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-10-28 10:32)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2007-10-28 23:29
Chris P wrote:
>> To me, the whole philosophy of clarinet playing is to make it as easy for yourself as you can, even if that means playing things on an A in certain situations (or a Bb in others, or even a C or Eb if you feel like it) to make things much simpler.>>
As a performer, I'd rather say that if I can't produce what a piece of serious music, written by a serious composer, seems to demand AS IT'S WRITTEN -- and that's after having given it all the effort I can muster -- then, I am then willing to try to reproduce it otherwise.
But, I wouldn't then go on to say that OTHERS should do as I did, as someone else did in another thread recently apropos the Strauss Wind Symphony. After all, those others might be better players than me. (And just to address you personally for a moment: you could ask yourself precisely how much effort YOU have mustered in any particular case.)
But beyond all that: notice that the honest playing of really good music doesn't just consist of the reproduction of the notes that constitute it. Rather, in such a performance, how you play those written notes always defers to context; and that context includes, among many other things, the instrument that the notes were written for.
For some (if not all) music, the fact that 'just producing the notes' isn't trivially easy for the performer may well be an important part of the meaning as appreciated by the audience. (Liszt's piano transcriptions of earlier music almost always substantially increase the difficulty of performance for precisely this reason.)
Finally, consider: given your 'philosophy', what would you say to someone who claimed that: "Obviously, the Trio of Beethoven's 8th symphony WORKS MUCH BETTER on the Eb clarinet -- so it should have been written for it. Beethoven didn't have that instrument available, but now we can correct that. (I play it much better on the Eb.)"
>> And stick two fingers up at the stuck up snobs at the same time.>>
:-)
....is all I can DECENTLY respond -- though I have other thoughts.
Tony
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-10-29 10:39
In an orchestral setting if the part is much more easily playable on an A clarinet than a Bb, or if only one small section specifies Bb when all others are on A (and your A is already warmed up through playing anyway), then I'd do that rather than change to a cold Bb for a few bars only to change back to A again.
But in pit work I'd use an Eb for the stratospheric stuff if it means getting around it much easier than playing it on Bb. This is where a situation can arise with some snotty reed player that talks a good gig moaning that 'You're cheating!' or similar, then they go and play a clarinet part on soprano sax, or completely muck up a simple line with an over the break B and C# in it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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