 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-10 07:37
I have a very well made ligature that I got a few years ago and seems to have lost the perfection it once had. Upon trying a few new ones, I found that they all had the great qualities that I remember. I spent about an hour trying the new and old ones just to be sure that I was sure, but the conclusion was that all the new ligs were better.
Since the ligature is under stress (from the screws) I wonder if there is can be an actual change in the strength of the metal over time. Is there any way to bring back that 'new lig' feel? I was thinking to heat it since new ligatures have been (reciently) heated during production.
One more of the 'myths' of clarinet to look at.
Views...
Post Edited (2007-10-10 08:45)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2007-10-10 12:17
I recall that years ago I read an interview in which Harold Wright offered that he periodically changed his Bonade ligature, as it lost it's vibrational abilities.
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Author: Lee
Date: 2007-10-10 13:31
Use dead ligatures only on blown out clarinets.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-10-10 14:20
If a new ligature feels better, by all means get one.
Harold Wright used a Bonade inverted ligature, which I've read that he changed once a year because it had list its springiness.
Kalmen Opperman takes inexpensive metal ligatures (Martin, I think) and bends the metal just outside the screw area so that it doesn't bind the edges of the reed. This lasts about 6 months, and you then need a new one.
String plays best, and it doesn't lose its springiness, since it never had any in the first place.
Ken Shaw
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Author: hans
Date: 2007-10-10 14:45
A ligature should not be tightened to the point where the metal is affected.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2007-10-10 15:23
Quote:
Harold Wright used a Bonade inverted ligature
Although I think that I have seen a picture with him using an inverted ligature, most of the pictures that I have seen of Wright show him with a regular Bonade (screws on the front). I believe that any of the times I saw him play he was using a standard Bonade.
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Author: ariel3
Date: 2007-10-10 15:51
Now you have got me to thinking. I use the Vandoren Leather Ligature. I just wonder if the leather has anything to do with the sound, etc. Do you think we should experiment with, say bear skin, pig skin or even kangaroo for a lively tone.
Now that I have opened this can of worms, I'm going to take a nap.
Gene
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-10-10 16:40
The Vandoren Leather is great. I hope it doesn't stretch out.....they're pricey.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-10-10 19:12
The thin German silver ones are soldered where the screws tighten. These can break at that stress point over time.
I have resoldered them with silver solder and flux, and they work ok.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: GoatTnder
Date: 2007-10-11 06:11
Assuming the actual dimensions aren't changing on the ligature, the loss of vibration could be the result of the crystalline structure in the metal breaking down. The easiest solution is to heat the ligature to a point where all the crystals will be able to re-align. For steel, that's about 1500 degrees Farenheit. Much lower, however, for gold and silver.
Andres Cabrera
South Bay Wind Ensemble
sbwe@sbmusic.org
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Author: GoatTnder
Date: 2007-10-11 21:32
Better than alchemy, it's physics! The process is called annealing.
For sterling silver the best temperature is between 1100 and 1200 degrees F. For 18 karat gold, about 1000 to 1100 degrees F. The process actually softens the metal, making it ready to be abused and deformed like so many percussionists...
Once it's up to temperature, it can be cooled by dousing it in water (and move it around for best results). This makes it hard again, but keeps the crystalline structure in it's purest form. And then, time to practice.
Andres Cabrera
South Bay Wind Ensemble
sbwe@sbmusic.org
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2007-10-11 21:32
I can just hear the ligature screaming (as it gets closer to the flame), "I'M NOT DEAD YET!!!" (With apologies to Monty Python & company) ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: GoatTnder
Date: 2007-10-11 21:34
Oh yeah... afterward, your ligature probably won't be nearly as shiny and pretty. Annealing causes rapid oxidation!
Andres Cabrera
South Bay Wind Ensemble
sbwe@sbmusic.org
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-11 23:32
"but keeps the crystalline structure in it's purest form. "
Sorry Andy but it ain't so and it wouldn't help a metal lig that has stretched or cracked.
Bob Draznik
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-10-12 01:14
"The process actually softens the metal, making it ready to be abused and deformed like so many percussionists..."
wow someones ragging on them eh..........?
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: Neal Raskin
Date: 2007-10-12 03:15
This is a very interesting thought. I am now curious as to wether getting a new lig would improve my tone a bit. I have had my BG Super Revelation for about 4 years. I think I may try some new ligatures at the local store. I'm sure glad I read this thread.
NMR
Andy, how would you go about heating a leather covered, gold ligature?? Probably easier to buy a new one. ;-)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-12 11:26
Discussions about ligatures are always interesting if not helpful due to the mix of fact and fiction......both of which are sometimes well intended.
Bob Draznik
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Author: kilo
Date: 2007-10-12 16:59
With some trepidation (and clad in asbestos) I pose this question. Can someone explain how the portion of the reed securely affixed to the table influences the vibrational qualities of the live portion along the facing curve?
Looking for edification, not an argument, I confess to being one of those sorry individuals who has never noticed significant acoustic differences between ligatures. I've used a Brancher, a Luyben, a Robert Vinson, rubber O-rings, and stock Selmer and Buffet ligs on clarinet and I've got a box of various tenor sax ligs as well. Assuming the screws aren't stripped and that the lig isn't tightened to the point of buckling the reed, how does the ligature affect the production of sound? The main difference I see is that some are more durable and some make it easier to center the reed.
I can understand that the reed needs to be securely fastened to the mouthpiece and must be bedded on the table, but I have a real hard time trying to understand how a gold lig elicits a different sound from a stainless steel, leather, or plastic one.
There was a time when nearly everyone was happy with the old two screw metal band; the rebels would invert theirs. Now when I go to rehearsal I'm amused to see six or seven different types of ligatures in use, some of the mouthpieces look like they're wearing blankets, others look like they're in traction. The solo clarinetist gets a beautiful tone out of his stock Buffet, go figure.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-10-12 17:53
Dear Kilo,
Everything effects resonance, to include your fingers, oral cavity, how you direct you horn, other various and sundry details and..........the ligature. I think that the quality of the vibrations that you can get out of your reed/ligature combination are indeed helped or hindered by the material and overal method of attaching the reed.
As an example I will use a method I personally find "God awful," but it works wonders for some. A sax guy I know uses a standard Rovner that binds the reed so losely that the reed can be shifted from side to side with the slightest touch. He claims this gives you a much bigger sound. They proof is in how he plays, which is with a huge resonant sound. There is no right answer, just many best ways depending how you approach playing and what you have for a tonal concept.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2007-10-12 18:16
In all seriousness, I was at a rehearsal last week, and the clarinetist next to me was having a bit of trouble with her tone. She wasn't happy with the ligature she was using, so I let her borrow mine for a few seconds to see if that was, indeed, the problem. Not changing anything except the switch from her "stock" Buffet lig (which was shipped to her last year when she bought a new E-11) to my Rovner Eddie Daniels II made a HUGE and very noticeable difference in her sound quality, much for the better.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: donald
Date: 2007-10-12 20:31
this is my 10 cents....
the difference between a "bad" ligature and a "good" one is noticable...
the difference between a "good" ligature and another "good" ligature is much less so, debatable and/or subjective. Here the difference may be audible at first, but after a period of time the "whatever you play, you will sound like yourself" factor may come into play.
the definition of a "bad" ligature could be the source of much speculation, but the one thing that no one will argue about- uneven pressure (left/right) on the reed is not ideal.
keep playing the good tunes
donald
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2007-10-12 20:45
The late, great Phil Farkas used to throw a few new Holton French horns in the back of his Jeep and drive around Aspen all summer; later selling them to his (Indiana?) students. His theory was that the bumping and grinding relaxed the molecular structure of the brass that hat been stressed by the manufacturing process, and that the horns played better as a result.
I use this theory with regard to the music stand that lives in the trunk of my car; the relaxed molecules make reading the minimalist composers' music less stressful to play!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-10-12 21:26
Kilo,
I don't think your question is "too far out there" at all. Asbestos is certainly not needed and you have not gored any sacred ox that I can see.
The question though is, once we know about "how the portion of the reed securely affixed to the table influences the vibrational qualities of the live portion along the facing curve?" what does that tell us? You've posed what seems to be a valid research question (that can not probably yield a null hypothesis that can be inferentially tested in its current form) but does the answer contribute to a larger body of knowledge?
I applaud your deep thinking but fear that you may be jousting with a windmill. But keep thinking.
HRL
"The trouble with thinking is that it sometimes gets in the way of the normal progression of events (Erickson, 1996).
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-12 22:07
Kilo- here is my thought on your question. First we must accept that all materials have a degree of stretch and bend and flex.
Imagine that we have a mouthpiece and reed assembled without the ligature- only water holding the reed on- then we try to play it. As we form the lips around the mouthpiece and apply even the slightest pressure the reed tip closes as the butt separates from the mouthpiece; caused by the curve of the facing. Thus, there is force pulling/pushing the reed butt AWAY from the table but the ligature holds it on because it is stronger. Again, all materials have some and different flexing qualities. Thus, different materials will have different abilities on holding the reed in place- thus, different effect on the tip, as the entire reed is one piece- thus, different qualities of sound.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-10-13 09:52
I do know that cheap ligs do affect tone. I was playtesting a bunch of clarinets in front of a pro - actually a sort of jam session. He said my tone was great except w/octave as it had a high pitch wail to it. I didn't notice this until i listened very intently and was able to identify it. I swapped about 8 clarinets, mpcs, reeds, etc and it was still there.
I was just using a regular double screw lig. I then grabbed another lig - like a penzel muller that had that reed cradle and the hgh pitch wail disappeared.
I thought I had pretty good ear training (edited each to 'ear') but it took someone else to point this out to me.
I then bought a rovner & optima. I've used optimas & rovners on sax and have noticed the tonal variation of each plate. but i never applied it to clarinet until that episode
moral of the story - ligs do make a difference, BUT you may not hear it yourself.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
Post Edited (2007-10-13 14:17)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-13 13:06
.....and when you think you understand single reed mechanics you can delve into double reeds.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Augustus
Date: 2007-10-13 21:36
I am an 80 year old amatuer who two years ago took up the clarinet again after a long hiatus from playing with church groups and friends. The B Board has given me a wealth of assistance in all matters regarding the clarinet. But I do have a question and I am hoping that those more experieced may be able to answer it. I have always played with the clarinet at about a 35 to 40 degree angle away from my body as suggested by David Pino in the "Clarinet and Clarinet Playing".
However, the other day while watching Artie Shaw play his Clarinette Concerto on the You Tube, I noticed he regularly played with his clarinet straight out, horizontaly that is. I decided to experiment by raising the clarinet higher but not horizontal. Well, I found that this relieved pressure on the thumb, My tongue was now hitting on the tip of the reed and not down further, the high notes were easier to reach and I did not have a tendency to bite. Also my fingers felt much more relaxed and natural and crossing the break was easier. I did find that too high and you lose the sound and it can become tinny.
So my question is, how high should the clarinet be held? How do you play it? Especially you doublers who are used the a Sax?
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-10-14 03:37
Hi,
I play the clarinet at the traditional angle (close to the body), soprano sax and oboe a little further away from the body, and the rest of the saxes and bass clarinet at the traditional angle(s).
I'd be a little concerned about you raising the clarinet approaching the horizontal (embouchure issues abound). Look at the Artie Shaw clip and see if his head and/or body tip back to raise the clarinet. You should be able to tongue correctly without having to raise the clarinet so high.
You probably need to consult a teacher for a little assistance.
HRL
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-14 11:54
HANK... it sounds like you're quite a "doubler"....The only problem us old geezeres have playing the clarinet straight out is that it's hard on the dentures but if you stumble its less dangerous.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-10-14 15:53
Draz,
And then there is the bassoon. Now that's a lot of fun!!! The embouchure required is perfect for someone with no fangs of any kind.
HRL
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-15 06:19
Back to Ligs...
As far as lig treatments go, what about putting the lig on a tapered wooden mandrel and hitting it with a rawhide or rubber mallet to temper it??
Post Edited (2007-10-15 14:42)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-15 14:25
Well, fact is, the diversion was due to the diverter being new and unaware of how to start a new thread. Your suggestion would best be adddressed with an email address.
Bob Draznik
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2007-10-16 02:29
For metal, non-inverted ligatures, you want to avoid too much deformation of the ends that contact the reed. When students point out ligatures as 'bad', they are generally deformed so that the pressure on the reed is uneven. I can generally fix these quickly just by bending them to make sure that the four places that contact the reed first are as far to the 'corners' of the ligature/reed contact region as possible. I think that this is the reason that Bonades, for example, are pretty consistent...the large bars that are soldered on the inside of the contact region. As you use these repeatedly with different reeds, they get bent here and there a little and aren't flat anymore, but are still stiff, and provide uneven pressure. If you have a really flat anvil, you can gently tap them flat and they get better again.
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Author: InTheBassment
Date: 2007-10-16 23:47
Ummm... not to add fuel to the fire, but I go to vandercook college of music, and our clarinet instructor insists that clarinet players use the vandoren optimum. There is one who absolutely LOVES her rovner because the leather over the entire bark of the ligature gives her a super dark sound.
The optimum is a great option for versatility with 3 interchangeable plates, but it's not cheap. however, i noticed (on the bass clarinet where response is a big problem in the clarion and altissimo registers) that my response was IMMEDIATELY better. there are great options with the optimum to find that balance between response and dark sound.
i suppose i didn't really say anything conclusive...
as far as how ligatures affect the sound, the more material touching the reed, the less you get the overtones that cause a bright sound. the less material touching the reed the higher the response.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-10-17 01:20
shmuelyosef,
You bring up an interesting point about the 4 places that contact the reed. I have several Portnoy ligatures which although similar to the non-inverted Bonade have just four corner contacts. I have other classic ligatures that seem to play better (old Luyben, Lurie, and Gigliotti). I modified the Gigliotti by taking a Dremel and removing a lot of the center rails so that the contact is just at the corners. I've got some Harrison's but they do not seem to perform that well.
HRL
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