 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: lj
Date: 2007-10-03 19:50
My 6th grader is just starting band class. Her teacher specializes in percussion, but told them he knows enough clarinet to teach it. To avoid high rental fees, I bought her the following setup: an Arioso clarinet (used; one of those listed as "hand crafted" and set up by Tom Ridenour--I'm very pleased with it) with a Fobes Debut mouthpiece, a Luyben ligature, and a #2 Legere student reed. She was playing around at home and could get out a few notes (middle C to open G). When she went to band class today for the first "hands on" class, her teacher told her that kind of reed was no good and that her she needed to pay him $1 for the "right" kind of reed, which was a #2 Rico (right--not royal or reserve, but just Rico). Now she can only get out an open G and she's a little frustrated. I don't want to antagonize the teacher, and I recognize the value (sort of) of getting used to the whole wetting the reed and dealing with it thing, but at the same time I want her to have the best chance at sounding good without needing to worry about her reed. I'm not a clarinet teacher, and I'm not a very good player myself, so she's going to depend on his instruction and a good relationship with him.
My question: should I talk to the teacher and make a case for the Legere, save the Legere for home and let her suffer through with the Rico at school, adjust the Rico (keep in mind that my adjusting skills are both rusty and minimal) or buy a better cane reed to appease him? If the latter, what is a good choice for an absolute beginner? Or is there a better solution I'm missing?
If you've read this far, thanks. I appreciate any enlightenment you can muster.
Linda
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-10-03 20:05
I'd say that the customer (you) is always right -- besides, a percussionist has a whole LOT of nerve trying to tell a woodwind (or brass, or string) player what equipment to use.
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-10-03 20:19
Never tried the Legere student reeds myself, but I like the Quebec cut ones for me...too hard for youngsters, though. If you want to try a better cane reed, she can go with a Mitchell Lurie No. 2...the cane is a bit better than a regular Rico. If the sound is good with the Legere though, and it's soft enough, use that. The cane reeds are less expensive though, and she should have a few playable reeds that she can rotate.
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Author: bahamutofskycon
Date: 2007-10-03 20:30
He may be a percussionist, but if he's the band director with any years of experience he should know what he's talking about at least a little bit. He's also in a position of authority (hopefully with good reason) and has probably had success with what he's recommending in the past.
That being said though, if I were the band director and the Legere works for your child way better than the Rico does - I would allow the student to use the Legere. IMO its more important to get a good, consistent sound than to use the *right* reed.
The director needs to remember/realize that different mouthpieces call for different reed strengths. Perhaps he's not familiar with the Fobes Debut and doesn't know what strength to recommend?
My recommendation would be to ask the band director to listen to your child play both reeds so he realizes that the Rico just isn't working for her. If he's reasonable, he'll let her use the Legere. Even if he still wants her on a cane reed she should be able to use the Legere while exploring other cane reed possibilities to find a better match than the Rico he's provided. Above all, he should be approached about this issue with tact so his relationship with you and your daughter isn't soured.
Hopefully there will be a mutually acceptable compromise if you let his ears do the thinking rather than arbitrarily making her play on the *right* reed.
In the meantime, use the "search" function and look up Fobes Debut and see if you can find reed brand/strength recommendations for it.
Sorry for the long post, but I hope that helps.
Steve Ballas
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Author: srattle
Date: 2007-10-03 21:16
Just my own personal opinion:
I don't know about the quality of normal Rico reeds in comparison to other cane reeds, I've never used Rico before, but I would have to agree about starting on a cane reed than a plastic one. Unless your daughter is sure that she will want to play on plastic reeds all her life (which of course she can not know) it would be good to start her on cane, getting used to how that feels, how it is to articulate and blow through cane, which is a different feeling from synthetic.
At a young age, and starting new on the instrument, a lot of things can happen now that will stick for the entirety of her playing, and be very difficult to change later (I still have problems with certain bad techniques that were taught to me by my first clarinet teacher, what was a flutist. . .)
Keep this in mind, and go talk to the teacher. Maybe he has a clear reason for this, and then you can ask if she could use better reeds, or try a few things out to see what works.
Also, immediate results are very nice but maybe give her a week, or a few days at least to see if it doesn't get better with this reed. Remember, we all have days where our reeds don't work, sometimes bad enough that even open G is a struggle to play
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-10-03 21:17
Legere student reeds (available for Bb clarinet) are marked #2 and #2 1/2 and compare to the regular Legere as #1 1/2 and 2 respectively. They are roughly half the cost.
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Author: lj
Date: 2007-10-03 23:17
Thanks, everyone. I really appreciate the varied perspectives. As some of you pointed out, it is important to maintain a good relationship with the teacher, and it probably doesn't hurt to get her obsessing about slivers of cane early on. (Of course, David Spiegelthal's answer made me *feel* better!)
I think the #2 cane reed was a little stiff for her, while the #2 Legere (which, as Mark Charette pointed out, is a student reed which was less than half the price of the regular and is softer than their regular reeds) was a better strength for her. The sound quality with the synthetic reed was noticeably better (I played it too), but after I sanded down the Rico she was at least able to get some more sounds out of it.
So I'll probably get a couple of softer reeds for now, and then talk to her teacher soon. (And put the Legere reed in her case as a backup!)
Thanks for helping me sort this out!
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Author: pewd
Date: 2007-10-04 00:37
FWIW, i start beginners on vandoren #3.0's on a Fobes debut.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Michelle
Date: 2007-10-04 06:17
My daughter started on 1 1/2 Rico's but I also bought her a student Legere 2.5. She used it interchangeably with the cane reeds. She had a nice mix of reeds in her case by the end of the school year. She did move through the weak reeds quickly, and by the end of her 2nd year she was using 2.5 or 3 cane reeds, Rico Royal and Vandoren both.
I think Legere is a valid competitor to cane and it's important to get used to both cane AND synthetic. I personally have several Legere's in each of my cases and I find myself turning to them when my cane reeds fail, due to humidity or breakage. When you suddenly can't get a good sound in the middle of a rehearsal , it's invaluable to have a winner you can reach for.
Bottom line: I recommend keeping and using the Legere in addition to the cane reeds. I have had no luck with other synthetic or plastic-covered reeds, by the way.
Good luck...
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-04 06:25
I would like to point out that a boc of 25 Rico reeds costs $19 at woodwind and brasswind- so, there will be a profit on that $1/reed. THe money is no big deal, really, but to insist on the orange box is a little strange to me. I got a box about a montha go for fun. I hadn't played an Orange Box Rico for about 10 years... And now I remember why.
Learning to play with a Rico is like learing to drive with a car that has a horribly dirty windshield.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-10-04 07:12
skygardener wrote:
> I would like to point out that a boc of 25 Rico reeds costs $19
> at woodwind and brasswind- so, there will be a profit on that
> $1/reed. THe money is no big deal, really, but to insist on
> the orange box is a little strange to me.
In slight defense of the band director -
Often, school districts music budgets are VERY tight and the cost of keeping numerous reeds (clarinets, saxes, double reeds) on hand, can add up quickly. Thus, to have enough different sizes and strengths, cheaper reeds were ordered.
School districts may also be required to order from certain vendors, where selection is more limited than (for example) WW/BW.
I taught for many years in the public schools and the reeds which we sold to students were also primarily Ricos. My school district did not permit me to order reeds of better quality, no matter how many times I tried.
As for the $1 charge per reed -
Charging a dollar is a lot easier for the band director, than asking for $.75 or $.50 per reed and worry about making change if the student did not have the exact amount.
In my district, even though we asked the students to pay for reeds when needed, most times we just gave them the reeds for free.
Especially if they needed one right before a performance ...GBK
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-04 08:10
Yeah, but it is still not good to encourage those of those things. They are not great reeds to begin with.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-10-04 10:13
>> Charging a dollar is a lot easier for the band director, than
>> asking for $.75 or $.50 per reed and worry about making
>> change if the student does not have the exact amount.
If he is doing it for the school (i.e. the school receives that $1) and it is the school decision to charge $1 per reed, then it is ok, but the student might be able to buy their own Rico reeds for less.
If the teacher is selling the reed at a price more than they cost just because it is "a lot easier" and they don't have to "worry about making change...." then it is unacceptable imo. They SHOULD worry about it and make sure they have change for the students. If they are just selling it for more because they want the little extra money then that's different (i.e. get paid for the "trouble" of getting the reeds), though I'm not saying this is ok.
As a student I guess I wouldn't mind paying a tiny bit more per reed, but as a teacher I would never do this to students.
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Author: lj
Date: 2007-10-04 10:53
I agree with GBK about the $1 reed issue. I've been on the other side, with my husband buying markers and charging students $1 each; depending on where we got them and what sales were on, sometimes it was a small profit, sometimes a small loss, and always a pain. The students were told in advance, in writing, that they needed markers and were free to purchase their own at whatever price they wished; many were happy to pay for the convenience (and, in the end, there was no money being made by anyone but the office supply company). So I have no objection to the teacher charging a dollar per reed and not having to worry about change. Besides, I suspect that some kids never remember to bring that dollar, or don't have it (lots of free & reduced lunch kids around here); it all evens out in the end, and the teacher is performing a service for the students.
I would have been happier had the teacher ever communicated with the kids or parents about what they needed--the only communication we've ever received from him was a glossy flyer about instrument rental with a short list of music stores along one side, with Music & Arts circled. Since he never provided information about what equipment he wanted, and she showed up with a reed he didn't consider acceptable, it would have made more sense to me if he had told her she needed to bring a cane reed to the next class or he would sell her one for $1. (Of course, it would also have made sense, when she couldn't remember how to put on the ligature, for him to have her put it on correctly rather than backwards, but that's another issue, and it plays okay either way)
Thanks again!
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-10-04 12:18
I currently work with public schools, and GBK's answers are right on the money.
I also agree with PEWD, I have never met a student that needed less than a Rico 2.5 if they were encouraged and taught to play the instrument with WIND and not their breath.
Of course, I haven't met every student...
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-10-04 12:23
lj wrote:
> I would have been happier had the teacher ever communicated
> with the kids or parents about what they needed
I found an old copy of the band handbook which I gave to students and their parents at the beginning of each year.
Under the chapter of "Supplies", I wrote:
"...These vary by instrument. If you do not have these items or if they did not come with your instrument, they can be purchased for a nominal cost through local music vendors.
Flute: cleaning/tuning rod, cotton cloth (part of an old T-shirt works fine),
Oboe: feather duster or silk swab, 2 reeds,
Clarinet: at least 2 extra reeds, reed guard, cork grease, cleaning swab,
Alto sax; at least 2 extra reeds, reed guard, cork grease, cleaning swab
Trumpet: valve oil, tuning slide grease
Trombone: slide oil, tuning slide grease, small spray bottle for water (optional)
Horn: rotary oil, tuning slide grease
Percussion; various beaters as needed
A note about reeds: During normal saxophone and clarinet use, students will wear out their reeds in about 2 or 3 weeks. Clarinet and saxophone players must have extra reeds in their case. I will have individual reeds available for purchase at a cost of $1...."
As long as students and parents knew the policy beforehand, there was never a problem with any of the above.
...GBK
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2007-10-04 13:23
Here's my take on this. The teacher is no doubt wrong and misinformed but follow his advice. I would suggest using a higher strength Rico such as a 3 and erasing this mark from the reed. This procedure teaches your daughter two things .....how to cooperate and how to modify your predicament in life to make it work. Being confrontational might also be good but perhaps it isn't a good time for that tactic....wait for something more important in life.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2007-10-04 14:05
The Fobes Debut mouthpieces actually work a smidge better with harder reeds, in my experience. I have one student with one now and he's closing off #3 reeds on it and he's only been playing for a few months. Of course, he's not a 10-yr-old beginner (he's 15 and tall & gangly), but I think Fobes himself recommends #3s for the Debut mps.
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Author: lj
Date: 2007-10-04 15:13
Thanks to all of you who provided specific info about reed strength for the Fobes Debut mouthpiece--that's very helpful.
I asked in the first place because I *don't* want to be confrontational (and neither does my daughter), and my clarinet skills are rusty (I just returned to playing in July after many years off--there are more options out there than I remember) so I appreciate all of the advice. I certainly don't have all (any?) of the answers, and I don't expect the teacher to either. I just expect reasonably clear communication. Some kids don't even have instruments yet; this was the first day my daughter brought the clarinet to school, and they were supposed to be working on assembling the instrument and identifying its parts rather than really playing, so I guess that's why I was surprised that her reed was a problem and that she was expected to purchase one that day. GBK's students were fortunate to have policies made clear from the beginning.
I appreciate everyone's input! This is a very generous community.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-10-04 15:36
Back in the golden olden days I used Mitchell Lurie (regular) #2.5 on the Debut without a problem (I'm on a #4 meanwhile). And the ML's are a tad softer than others with the same nominal strength...
--
Ben
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Author: seafaris
Date: 2007-10-04 15:38
First I have to say that I use Legere reeds, and love them. BUT I did start out on cane reeds and I do feel that it is important to learn how to play them.
One other thought on the director. I would think that he would want everyone to start on the same reeds so he has a base on what to judge if the student is having a problem. Also there are A LOT of directors etc who know nothing about legere reeds.
...Jim
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-10-04 16:29
Here's my $.02, based on my daughter's experiences playing on a Fobes Debut as a beginner and my own experiences with the mouthpiece. I don't think the band director is totally out of line, either with the reed choice for an absolute beginner or the $1 charge. I also personally think it's a bit rash, without knowing him and his abilities, to conclude that he doesn't know anything about the clarinet simply because his primary instrument is percussion (now trumpet might be another matter ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif) ). And to set the record straight, the price of a box of 25 "orange box" Rico reeds at WW&BW is $19.95 plus $1.58 tax and $4.95 shipping.
It could be, however, that your daughter got a particularly bad example of what is usually a mediocre reed and you might want to explore why she is having trouble with it. Is it too stiff so that she can't play it? Or so soft that it is closing up on her? You might also want to make sure she has it positioned correctly on the mouthpiece.
My recommendation would be that you buy her a couple of Rico Royal #2's and a couple of Rico Royal #2.5's for starters and let her experiment a little, using the lighter reeds at first. If she starts out with a reed that gives her too much resistance, she may be frustrated and conclude that blowing the clarinet is just too much work to be worth it. If the #2 and the #2.5 are too light, you can move up another half strength and you're not out much money.
As far as the Legere goes, I think if you try it, yourself, you will find that it has quite a different "mouth feel" than cane. It may not make any difference but, personally, I think I would rather start a beginner on cane.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: lj
Date: 2007-10-04 17:19
Just to be clear--I didn't say the teacher doesn't know anything about clarinets. I'm sure he does, which is one reason I asked for some input. It's not his main instrument, but he certainly knows more about music pedagogy than I! (My band teacher in middle school was a euphonium player! Yeah, I have some bad habits...)
I have tried the Legere reeds, which I'd say are better than most of my reeds but don't sound quite as good as my best ones, and they do feel a little different, so I see the point of getting used to the cane reed to begin with.
As for the $1 reeds, maybe he's giving them a bargain. I went to M&A on my lunch hour, and they were selling three-packs of Rico reeds for $6.95! Yes, they were Bb clarinet reeds--I double checked. They only had 10-packs of Rico Royals, so for now I got five Mitchell Lurie 2.5's (as mentioned by Tictactux) and we'll see where it goes from there.
Thanks for bearing with my tempest in a teacup.
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-10-04 21:52
one possible(but not so probable) reason that he gave her the rico maybe is that when she can handle that one, it feels like heaven to change to allmost anything else, and that'll give the young clarinetplayer a feel of getting better fast. and that is often what young people wants, wich will lead her to keep playing.
that is a, not as common but still used, method in some places up here.
maybe he just gave her a bad reed! try out other strenghts, and possible models that the teacher have in stock. 1$ is not so much. worht trying. and better than buying a whole box.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2007-10-05 17:08
I would suggest that you get her a Rico Grand Concert Thick Blank #2 Reed. To me a Vandoren #3 reed is way too stiff for a starting player on a Fobes Debut.
I'm an Artist of that Reed Company by choice - I think they are the best.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2007-10-06 02:14
THe better Rico loines, such as the GC and the Mitchell Lurie are very nice reeds, but the orange box reeds are more fit to be reduced to toothpicsks than to be used on any real musical instruments.
HAving said that, I generally use Legere Quebecs, but I am currently breaking in a set of Gonzalez FOFs just to see if I might like them better. I also have some Xilemas and Reeds Australia in the background waiting for a trial.
Wht don't you go to the Legere website; in the downloads section, there is a several-page long treatise on reeds and student use. Download it, print it off and offer a copy to the teacher.
I played clarinet for years, and could not have been happier when my daughter decided to pick up the instrument, prior to 5th grade. The setups the school recommended the kids start with were largely garbage, and I made sure she had a better clarinet, mouthpiece, ligature and reeds to begin with, as well as lessons with a private teacher. Once I had a chance to speak with the teacjher at the school, they pretty much told here that she could use whatever her teacher and I thought was best for her. THey also welcomed me in as a volunteer to work with various sectionals s9ince I had the time available.
Sometimes, it is better to go along with the system, but if you KNOW that what they are doing is to encourage bad habits or poor development as a musician, it doesn't hurt to ask a few serious questions. As long as you don't present yourself as an antagonistic know-it-all, most teachers are glad to work with you.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: MaroonAlto
Date: 2007-10-06 02:30
Personally, I'm glad I drove with that dirty windshield for so long...I can play instruments that leak and/or with bad setups. Plus, I got a great spiked hairdo from sticking my head out the window :o)
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2007-10-06 03:34
I am an elementary band director myself, as well as a clarinet player. Of course we are expected to have proficiency on and knowledge about each of the instruments we teach, otherwise we wouldn't be doing our jobs. I would be surprised but pleased if a parent got his daughter set up the way you did. We do tend to adopt a "one size fits all" approach in the beginning, because there is a room full of too many kids with a variety of equipment. I think the good old #2 Rico is just the "default". By the way, the boxes that have the reeds in little individual plastic cases are more expensive and, if that is the case, $1 is a bargain. These are the ones I get (yes, I do get Rico, for the same reason GBK described) because the cherubs are less likely to break them all. In short order, I start tweaking types and strengths, and send the students out to the nearby store which has kindly stocked the brands I suggest.
Sue Tansey
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2007-10-06 04:11
My student who plays on a "soft"-ish #3 on his Fobes is playing on a plain ol' Rico. I suggested the Royals cause I find them to be a bit stronger.
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Author: lj
Date: 2007-10-06 13:51
It's good to hear from all of the teachers out there--it helps to hear some of the suggestions as to why he might have made the choices he did. I really respect what you all do--I know he's dealing with students who have little to no musical background, and the school has very limited resources (of course--why would you provide resources for music when you can spend the money on obsessive testing for the sake of testing?) so I'm sure the beginning of the school year with the brand new middle schoolers must be a roller coaster ride. He ended up asking my daughter if she played better on her reed, and he told her it was okay to use it if she did, so she feels more comfortable now and is trying both. We will experiment with the good suggestions you provided. (I'm still trying to sort out the reed issue for myself, so I'm not much help--at the moment, after the multi-year layoff, I'm finding that I can only play for a very short time unless I switch to a softer reed, but then I have trouble with the altissimo range. So right now, there are all kinds of sticks of plastic and cane floating around the house--Rico, Mitchell Lurie, Gonzalez, Legere...*sigh*)
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Author: InTheBassment
Date: 2007-10-18 00:06
i just thought i'd throw in my two cents. a brand new student should get used to a cane reed because as she may get a better sound on legere now, the cane will give her a much richer sound in the future when she is concentrating on fine tuning her sound instead of just learning notes. if she gets used to cane now, it will be easy to switch back to legere (which are great for marching, by the way- less chance of chipping and cracking and don't change with weather changes).
just my personal opinion =)
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2007-10-18 14:16
"if she gets used to cane now, it will be easy to switch back to legere (which are great for marching, by the way- less chance of chipping and cracking and don't change with weather changes)."
My take is precisely the opposite: Although I rarely teach elementary students, I find that eliminating the variables that are endemic with [all]cane reeds allows the student to concentrate on note reading and eye/finger co-ordination -- plenty of time later on the get in the cane reed culture!
As for using Legere reeds for marching band, I find it folly to expose a c.$15 reed to the abuse of the football/practice field; that's where the $1.00 Ricos are most appropriate.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-10-18 16:09
Hi,
I just started two of my grand-daughters on clarinet this past month (yes, I am a former HS band director, woodwind pro, and the teacher of hordes of clarinet players over the years). I did get their director's approval first - I was the director in this school system for many years when Bundy's roamed the Earth.
The clarinets selected were two Bundy's that i got on eBay and re-padded as needed (one is a Mazzeo in perfect shape) and the accessories are two Selmer HS**MPs, two Gigliotti ligatures, and -drum roll - Rico #2 reeds. All of this "stuff" I had already so why not have the little darlings use better equipment?
I do plan to switch both girls to better Rico reeds when their reed-management skills warrant stiffer and better cane. Rico Royals are not that much more so... Hey, maybe Harrison ligatures in their Holiday/Christmas socks!
HRL
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