 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-08-15 06:04
I have been looking for some info on what changing the position, size, length, etc. of the register vent will do to intonation. Does anyone here have any first hand experience with this?
thanks
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-08-15 06:38
You can read about what different register vent sizes will do to intonation and reponse of a new model Buffet bass clarinet on my thread in the Keepers forum.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-08-15 10:46
Hello Skygardener,
Three suggestions to add to clarnibass' great thread.
I almost bought an Eb clarinet (from Greg Smith) that had had its' register vent repositioned by Guy Chadash for intonation purposes. So I imagine he would be helpfull to contact with those questions.
If you go to David Blumberg's website you can investigate the Galper mechanism which lengthens the register vent (improving the qualities of the throat Bb) on the outside of the clarinet. The site also says that the mechanism allows the clarinet to be more free blowing, and aids in registral transition.
http://www.mytempo.com/galper_register_key.htm
There have also been a couple of other threads authored by those experimenting with the vent that you could find through the search function.
I personally can add that shortening the register vent by a small amount can improve response in the upper clarion, and well as connections into and out of that register of the clarinet.
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2007-08-15 10:49)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-15 12:34
I shortened the speaker tube on my Selmer basset horn to prevent the pullthrough getting snagged on it as it intruds the bore a fair amount - but it was a total disaster in that it ruined the upper register so I had to hard solder it back together again (fortunately I used a fine piercing saw to cut off a length and that was easy enough to silver solder back on with only around 0.5mm max loss in length).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-08-15 13:22
Hi Sky G - I too have been interested in this long-standing "problem", and believe I have seen some improvements by virtue of the depth of penetration of the tube into the bore. Some models by Selmer and Leblanc have this feature. Ave Galper's experimentation led to his US Patent 5,241, 890 and to de Lancie's OBOE "bowl" [Chris] 6,124,537. A number of earlier pats were cited in Galper which may be worthwhile looking at. Two Alberts [1900's] I have don't "penetrate" , and have a short "boss-tube" on the outer surface, away from the "water run", ?ala early Buffets? I suggest that caustion, to not go beyond the "point of no return" would be appropriate, the dual service of register-vent and Bb is like "trying to serve two masters" IMHO. "Nuff for now. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Ed
Date: 2007-08-15 17:04
Guy Chadash has done this a great deal on Buffet A clarinets with great success. He moves the register vent up 1mm and also makes a new tube with different measurements (possibly length as well as internal taper, depending on your needs). Of course, he then lengthens the register key accordingly to accommodate this. I have had this done by him a few years ago and am extremely happy with the results. There was a great improvement to the instrument. It would be best to try to contact him for technical details, as I can't speak much about that.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-15 17:12
And I presume this relocated and different design of speaker tube frees up the over-the-break B which isn't exactly great on some A clarinets.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2007-08-15 19:16
Check the Leblancs designed by Ridenour. I believe they were moved about 1mm higher also.
richard smith
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-08-15 22:41
Let me rephrase my question- If I, for example, move the vent on a clarinet up/down by 1mm, what are the corresponding things I can expect to happen to the intonation? This is without changing the size of the vent; only position.
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2007-08-15 23:45
The A, B, & C just above the staff will be lowered if the tube is moved toward the top of the clarinet - raised if moved toward the bottom of the clarinet. The beauty of it is that the corresponding lower 12ths will not move.
Gregory Smith
Post Edited (2007-08-16 00:06)
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Author: Steve B.
Date: 2007-08-16 00:31
Buffet has been doing this with their Festival model for years.
(Register vent moved up 2mm)
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2007-08-16 01:45
The register tube location has been moved incrementally higher up on the R13 Eb over the last few years. It's of course always been relatively high on the RC model.
Still, I've observed that the register tube could be placed much higher (almost to the top of the body), then the top of the second register would play as well in tune as any Buffet Bb. The twelfths would then be about as close as they could be considering set the acoustical compromises involved.
In order to accomplish this, I've had Guy Chadash relocate the tube higher up on several instruments - both mine, my clients, and my students Eb's. There really is no reason to have to play the top of the second register sharp anymore.
The first solo of the Daphnis 2nd suite can be played with relative ease without having to play or hear a sharp high C - especially within the printed diminuendo.
Not too many years ago, maybe 20 or so, one would have to put their entire right hand down while playing the high C in order to bring the pitch down. Mouthpiece/barrel design has substantially improved since that time so that could also have contributed to the solution of this problem.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
Post Edited (2007-08-16 01:47)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-08-16 03:31
As you say this lowers the high A-B-C area- is the rest of the clarino is also, but to a lesser extent, lowered?
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2007-08-16 03:44
No. It lowers each note progressively less from high C downward until one reaches about A or Ab. Then acoustically speaking, the lower half of the clarinet takes over.
Gregory Smith
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Author: Firebird
Date: 2007-08-16 03:51
Speaking of which, has anyone heard of the Hagemann system?
Chan
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-08-16 08:22
Thanks Mr.Smith. So if the bottom half of the horn is not really affected by moving the register vent, then how would one go about narrowing the 12ths in that area?
Post Edited (2007-08-16 16:39)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-16 16:05
"Speaking of which, has anyone heard of the Hagemann system?"
Is this the device fitted to the throat A tonehole?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-08-16 20:37
Out of an abundance of curiousity, I made a couple of quickie {US} patent searches for Hagemann AND cl-related terms. Found zero, any thots about this question ?? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: clarinet60
Date: 2007-08-17 19:45
I saw a Buffet RC with the Hagemann system on Ebay a while ago. It appears to be a mechanism that is set up to control two(?) register holes based upon what notes are being played. I believe it is made by a clarinet expert in Switzerland, and supposedly costs about $2,000 to be added to the clarinet. Perhaps someone else can provide more details. It appears that it would add significant complexity and weight to the instrument.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-17 21:45
Is this Hagemann the same Rene Hagemann that Buffet worked in conjunction with when designing their basset horn?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-08-17 22:09
Isn't René Hagmann (no e in the last name) the one with the brass valves? Or are there two of them with slightly differing names?
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-17 22:19
I can't find my old Buffet catalogues to find that out.
Are those the (Hagmann) valves found on Rath trombones?
Wasn't he in Dallas? Oh, that's Larry Hagmann!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-08-17 22:20)
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Author: Firebird
Date: 2007-08-18 02:34
The one that allows your throat notes to sound clearer, I think.
Has anyone tried a clarinet with Hageman modifications?
Chan
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-08-18 02:49
"What a Difference AN E Makes", to paraphrase an old song ! Try a Google/Patents [US] search for Rene Hagmann, didn't find any pats to him, but his publications were cited , re: tmb valves. There was a pat to a Stefan Hagmann also of CH ??, and a ref. to Selmer. Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Steve B.
Date: 2007-08-18 14:56
In order to lower the 12'ths for the lower half of the horn ie. Middle C above the break, you can pull the middle joint.
Steve
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