 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: lauren01040806
Date: 2007-08-07 05:30
I recently came into possession of an old wooden clarinet. I took it in to be overhauled and the guy said that it wasn't worth it mainly because there was an LP stamped on the bell. He said that this stood for Low Pitch and that I would probably never be able to get the clarinet to play in tune. I have been playing for 12 years but have never heard of this before. Can someone explain a little more about what the Low Pitch really means.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: pewd
Date: 2007-08-07 05:45
usually, LP means its pitched to A-440.
which is what we want in the US.
i'd probably find myself another tech...
you won' t be able to play a HP (high pitch) one in tune with others, but a LP one should be set to the correct standard.
the definitive answer is slap a mouthpiece on it and play it (if its playable) and check it against a tuner set to a-440.
search the archives for LP - tons of posts on this subject.
try here for starters:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=55524&t=55507
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: lauren01040806
Date: 2007-08-07 06:32
Thanks for the response. When I took it in to the store there was a band director in and when I played it we both thought that it had a nice sound. He also said he was surprised I could get a sound out of it. I think that I will take it to another tech and see what the say. Thanks again!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-07 10:48
"I took it in to be overhauled and the guy said that it wasn't worth it mainly because there was an LP stamped on the bell. He said that this stood for Low Pitch and that I would probably never be able to get the clarinet to play in tune."
Well, he's just lost himself a customer in that case! Maybe he ought to do some research before spouting crap and turning away work because he hasn't got a clue.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-08-07 14:56
Paul, I believe I disagree Slightly with you, my impression is that LP was the early 1900's "standard Pitch", usually about 435 cps/Hertz, which did create some "flatness" when A =440 was accepted by most musical groups, inst mfgrs etc. I believe the 5 cps diff. can/is compensated-for by using a slightly shorter barrel [1-2 mm shorter], without creating noticeable tuning problems with the clarinet in itself. Others, please help, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: pewd
Date: 2007-08-07 22:21
Don, yes, it depends when it was built.
I used to own an Eb from about 1930, stamped LP, after a bit of fooling around with mouthpieces, it was as in tune as any Eb ever is
I don't have any experience with 1900's vintage horns.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony Beck
Date: 2007-08-07 23:44
Here's another datapoint for you. I have a 1919-ish Kohlert LP Bb (with wrap around register key and marked Czecho-slovakia). Setting the tuner for A=440, the 12ths are a little wide, but clarion is within a couple cents from C to C, much better than many modern instruments! This is using the original barrel and a Grabner CK-13 mouthpiece. My older Carl Fischer LP eefer isn't bad (with a replaced barrel), but it's not as good as Herr Kohlert.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ski
Date: 2007-08-08 02:54
Maybe slightly unrelated to this topic, but regarding A=440 as the US standard... Recently I had to research the technical specs for Avery Fisher Hall. These can be found here...
http://www.lincolncenter.org/load_screen.asp?screen=aboutus_campusrental_afh_ts
According to the published specs, all piano tunings are done at A=442. This seemed really odd to me (as did other things about the specs, but that's another matter). So I'd imagine that if an orchestra was performing for a piano concerto or any other piece in which piano was included, everyone would have to tune sharp. So if the spec is correct, how does this affect the clarinetist? Is he/she supposed to simply tune their preferred instrument as best as possible to the 442 standard? Or do clarinetists (particularly US-based performers) have to carry multiple instruments to accommodate such tunings?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-08-08 03:58
Actually, I think you will find that many (most?) major U.S. symphony orchestras now tune to A = 442.
Awhile back, a member of the St. Louis Symphony told me that was their standard.
The discussion here (which, in general, looks a lot like what we see on this board) includes some posts about other specific orchestras. I will not vouch for any of their accuracy.
http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=11273
Google "symphony 442 tuning" without the quotes and you will find some other relevant discussions.
Use the same search function on the BB archives and you will also get quite a few hits. This one:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=131025&t=124013
includes Tom Piercy and Greg Smith stating that the NY Phil and Chicago Symphony, respectively, tune to A = 442.
Best regards,
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2007-08-08 12:12
Alot of High School bands have started tuning to A=442 as well. A local school who is well known for their excellent band program tune to A=442.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-08-08 13:42
Sorry to digress...but I've heard tons of bands whose clarinet sections tune to A=442 without having discussed it with the oboist or even the rest of the band!
James
Gnothi Seauton
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-08 13:51
A lot of bands never discuss things with the oboists.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-08-08 14:06
Yup, a symp. oboist is usually left being flat to every other inst. When I had this "trying" job, I'd either pull the reed/staple a mm or so before the tune-up, or have another, higher -pitched, reed on standby. And then, some folk still don't understand why we get red-faced at times. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ski
Date: 2007-08-08 15:48
Jack, at your suggestion I did a search on the BB for this issue and, while I didn't read all 55 hits, got a pretty good sense that there's confusion as to what tuning standards are in general in the US. And apparently the mouthpiece, size of the barrel, and even the construction of the clarinet itself all contribute to the tuning.
In any event, I was curious to know if (particularly) US-based clarinetists (and particularly orchestral players) have to own multiple instruments in order to accommodate different tuning standards, or do they just pull out/lip up/use alternate fingerings to stay in tune?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-08-08 15:53
Ski wrote:
> In any event, I was curious to know if (particularly) US-based
> clarinetists (and particularly orchestral players) have to own
> multiple instruments in order to accommodate different tuning
> standards,
Never heard of that happening and I know personally a number of clarinetists playing in world-reknown orchestras.
> or do they just pull out/lip up/use alternate
> fingerings to stay in tune?
Yes. Try checking the tuning during a long concert piece. You'll find often the tuning changes during the performance.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: graham
Date: 2007-08-08 15:59
My LP marked 1920ish Hawkes full Boehm does not play flat with a Vandoren mouthpiece, so it is at least as high as A=440
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-08-08 17:24
Ski,
I think Mark has pretty much answered your question. All I might add is that the difference between 440 and 442 is pretty small -- probably not enough to require different instruments. On the other hand, my guess is that most orchestral clarinetists do have multiple barrels in a variety of lengths and, in some cases, perhaps even a variety of mouthpieces that they can resort to if they run into an odd-pitched (or out-of-tune) piano during their travels or a guest soloist who requests the orchestra to tune to a different pitch than they normally do. (Did you run across the story about Richard Stoltzman in your search?)
Best regards,
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ski
Date: 2007-08-08 17:45
@ Mark, thanks for your reply.
@ Jack, thanks for the reply as well. I recall seeing the name Richard Stoltzman in the search but didn't read about him. Perhaps I should, you've piqued my curiosity.
On the issue of tuning... I have "perfect" pitch (an term I've always felt was somewhat obnoxious, but "absolute pitch" doesn't describe the phenomenon accurately either). Anyway, I can tell if someone's a half-cent out, so for me, the difference between 440 and 442 is wide enough to drive a truck through But whether or not a tuning discrepancy bothers me is a matter of context; sometimes it can lend a sense of character, but other times it will just sound baaaaaaad.
Post Edited (2007-08-08 17:46)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-08-08 18:03
When I have my tuner generate a tuning notes at 440 and 442, I can hear a difference. I didn't mean to imply that it was so small as to be indistinguishable to most people. What I meant was that it is small enough that an accomplished player should be able to tune and "voice" an instrument to play at either pitch, requiring at most a different barrel or mouthpiece.
As for the story. In brief, an orchestral musician mentioned that his (unidentified) orchestra normally tuned at 440. However, as a guest soloist, Richard Stoltzman requested that they tune to 442 so that he wouldn't have to get a shorter barrel.
Best regards,
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ski
Date: 2007-08-08 18:06
Thanks for the clarification on 440/442 perceptibility and what you meant. Re the Stolzman story, ![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony Beck
Date: 2007-08-08 20:52
Speaking of the pitch creeping up during a performance, it's pretty common in amateur groups. Our community band does it regularly, particularly at outdoor concerts for some reason. I've had to pull out a shorter barrel in the middle of a concert on more than one occasion.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Wes
Date: 2007-08-08 21:02
Here we go again! The standard pitch in the Los Angeles area seems still to be 440, although some piano tuners get told in school to tune to 442. The piano in the Local 47 main rehearsal/recording hall is still tuned to 440, however. I think that many local string players try to arrive at rehearsals with open strings in the 440 ballpark. It doesn't seem to be an issue for many people here.
My old Loree oboe rings at 440, my new Loree oboe is 440, and my fine Laubin oboe is 440, certainly not above. The new Buffet Bb clarinet which I picked from a dozen is 440 with the stock barrel and my recent Buffet A clarinet is there also. I must be getting a message.
While clarinet tuning can be sharpened by a different barrell, the oboe tuning is much more difficult to raise, next to impossible for me. If a conductor wants an A at 442, I give it by pinching it up to 442 and then proceed to play on the flat side of the pitch, as one can't pinch forever.
Good Wishes!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
