 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: scott kurtzweil
Date: 2007-07-10 16:53
Attachment: clarinetchallengeresults.jpg (52k)
Hello All,
This past week in Vancouver, the WWBW hosted a clarinet play test pitting instruments from various manufacturers against one another. Those who participated in the challenge were blindfolded and given the opportunity to play test each clarinet as they deemed best. They were then asked to simply choose which clarinet they preferred from those on the table. We kept track of their responses, the results of which are listed below.
With the exception of Buffet, who preferred that we take clarinets from our own inventory, the clarinet models and instruments were provided by the manufacturers at the show and their techs were allowed to tweak them any time throughout the day. We did this to best ensure the most level playing field as possible. I regret Yamaha was not represented in this challenge due to Yamaha USA not allowing us to show in a foreign country.
RESULTS (with approximately 10% of convention attendees participating).
1. Buffet R13 – 36%
2. Buffet Vintage – 31%
3. Selmer Paris Saint Louis - %14
4. Orsi & Wier Varese - %11
5. Leblanc – Legacy - %8
Scott Kurtzweil
Scott Kurtzweil
Kurtzweil Musical LLC
www.kurtzweilmusical.com
269-340-9013
scott@kurtzweilmusical.com
Post Edited (2007-07-10 16:57)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-07-10 18:04
Scott - what was the number (n) that did the test? What is your guess at the average level of playing ability of the testers (I know this is subjective but I would rate those that came to test the Forte' clarinets at the show as high intermediate to expert). Did you ask what clarinet they were currently playing?
Thanks,
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2007-07-10 18:26
That was probably my favorite part of the exhibit hall. Though the results are probably skewed a bit by the fact that a Yamaha (which was my 2nd favorite of the bunch) was there in place of the Orsi & Wier while I was around.
FWIW, I'm one of the Legacy 8%, and thought the Buffets and Selmer could have used adjustment... I went early on, so perhaps they were indeed worked on later.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: scott kurtzweil
Date: 2007-07-10 20:47
Hi Omar -
The number of those participating was 36 (which I believe was just over 10% of the show's attendees). I'd say the average level of playing was advanced to expert. We did not ask on what clarinets the participants were currently playing but the majority of them did mention they played Buffets.
What I found interesting is that the results of this "test" do not reflect our sales patterns which are 96% Buffet.
- Scott
Scott Kurtzweil
Kurtzweil Musical LLC
www.kurtzweilmusical.com
269-340-9013
scott@kurtzweilmusical.com
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Author: scott kurtzweil
Date: 2007-07-10 20:52
Hello Alex,
Let me preface this by saying that I am not a Buffet apologist but neither of the Buffets were touched by Francois or Bruce at any time during the show. Bruce Silva incouraged me to pull two horns from our inventory and those are the two that you played.
- Scott
Scott Kurtzweil
Kurtzweil Musical LLC
www.kurtzweilmusical.com
269-340-9013
scott@kurtzweilmusical.com
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2007-07-10 21:03
Too bad the Tosca wasn't part of the mix. That would have put a strong bias on Buffet though.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-07-10 23:05
I wonder if Selmer would have faired differently with either the Signature or the Recital in the mix, instead of the St. Louis model.
Likewise, it is too bad Yamaha was not offered.
Additionally, the inclusion of a Hennway might have added some interest.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-07-10 23:39
Alseg wrote:
> Likewise, it is too bad Yamaha was not offered.
> Additionally, the inclusion of a Hennway might have added some
> interest.
What's a Hennway?
About 3 pounds. ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif) ...GBK
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-07-11 00:05
Vaudeville is not dead.
GBK is on his game.
I wondered who would spring at it.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2007-07-11 00:05)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-07-11 00:15
Alseg wrote:
> Vaudeville is not dead.
> GBK is on his game.
I didn't spend my formative years playing in the Catskill hotels for nothing...GBK ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-07-11 00:20
Oh, THAT Henny Hennway!!???
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2007-07-11 02:13
This test strikes me as an incredibly non scientific test. I could "Blindfolded" tell you the make and model of every clarinet in current production by feel alone. So the blindfold is irrelevant. Also If I play a buffet, and have a mouthpiece and reed set up for a Buffet than that set up would problably play better on a Buffet than on other makes. A more unbiased test would be to ask of the major venders at the ICA "How many clarinets and what kind did you sell"?
Tom Puwalski
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2007-07-11 02:15
There are all sorts of reasons to take these results with a grain of salt, of course; one of the more obvious being that people tend to be comfortable with what's familiar to them, even if they're aware of its shortcomings. Someone who's been playing Buffet R13s for 30 years is unlikely to be happy with a much different instrument after only a few minutes of playing it. It'd be interesting to see results of a similar test in which the participants could take all the instruments home, play them for a year, and return next year to cast their vote -- I have a feeling, though, such a test is unlikely to occur!
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2007-07-11 02:32
If you're asking how many clarinets they sold AT clarinetfest, that would also be considerably skewed, given the whole tariff situation this year.
The left-pinky Eb key was a pretty significant giveaway for the Legacy and the Vintage. I knew the Legacy was the Legacy the moment I picked it up, as I tried a few the day before and it just felt the same, but I still liked it better than the other 4.
In any case, it was a very fun visit to the WWBW booth (fun enough that I moderated a friend of mine trying Backun barrels in a similar fashion later that day, sneaking her own in as well), and I hope it makes another showing at next year's Fest.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2007-07-11 03:43
Obviously it's not a scientific test for the reasons listed above. Still, it's interesting that it was done blide. Tom, you have to be kidding to say that the better test would have been to ask who sold more of what. The whole idea behind the test was to fight the inherent bias within name recognition and reputation.
It does not surprise me that the Orsi & Weir made a decent showing. I'm actually surprised it did not do better. One interesting point of note: The R13 and Vintage bores are basically the same, indicating an even bigger preference for the same basic instrument. Still, I agree that mouthpiece, reed, and feel preferences going in make it impossible to draw any conclusions.
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-07-11 04:29
Wait a minute. IF the people who were attending had a previous bias for buffets, couldn't they recognize a buffet by the keywork and height angles? The feel of branded clarinets are different and there is a consistency in touch that could trigger the bias for buffet (or maybe i'm looking to into this) but could it be that the musicians "felt" familiarity and in turn translated to selection?
Cool survey though.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2007-07-11 11:45
The Selmer Recital Model is more like a rock in weight, so I doubt that it would have done too well. Neck straps are pretty much of a requirement for that model.
That or anyone playing it who knew the model would probably know what they were playing blindfolded or not.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-07-11 12:05
David, I agree that the Recital feels unique, but Its marketing, as well as that of the Signature, seems to be aimed at the Buffet niche, whereas the St Louis might be positioned more to take on the Pete Fountain Leblanc...or so it seems from the ads.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: scott kurtzweil
Date: 2007-07-11 17:41
Of course we have to take this play test with a HUGE grain of salt. The purpose was not to be scientific but meant to be a fun point of interest in the exhibit hall.
One thing that I was personally interested to see was whether or not the "expert" players could truly tell a difference when their eyes were removed from the equasion. I was surprised to find that the few times I slipped the participants own clarinet into the mix, it was not chosen. Again, highly unscientific but it casts a bit of doubt on the "we always chose a clarinet in our comfort zone" argument.
Scott
Scott Kurtzweil
Kurtzweil Musical LLC
www.kurtzweilmusical.com
269-340-9013
scott@kurtzweilmusical.com
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Author: scott kurtzweil
Date: 2007-07-11 17:46
I agree and had actually planned to put up a Signature since it feels and plays more like a Buffet (obviously the Recital would be a dead give away). The Saint Louis I had on the table was selected by Selmer Paris as their choice since they believed it to be the best fit for the R13 player. Go figure.
- Scott
Scott Kurtzweil
Kurtzweil Musical LLC
www.kurtzweilmusical.com
269-340-9013
scott@kurtzweilmusical.com
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-07-11 18:38
I have to commend Scott for doing this experiment - he is an accomplished if not monster player in his own right, shrewd businessman, and university teacher. In this case he turned lemons - because of the customs and other constraints he brought nothing to sell - into lemonade.
Although not fitting for a statistical geek like me, I think that the experiment at least got many players to evaluate several professional grade instruments in one sitting. I must admit that I have Buffet potatoes in my ears but was intrigued by some of the tonal coloration possibilities of the other instruments. Of course, as mentioned, some of the keywork was a give away and mouthpieces optimized for other instruments, but it was educational and would convince me to try other horns when a new instrument is on my to do list.
With a couple hundred horns of each type, a limited number of mouthpieces, the same reed type, and several hundred testers and a month's worth of time one could get close to a real experiment but my congratulations to Scott for tweaking my interest in other horns and having some fun in the process.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: John Weir
Date: 2007-07-11 22:20
Hello Scott & All,
A thank you to Scott for putting us in the Clarinet Challenge mix and also some clarification. The Orsi & Weir (correct spelling) Varese model Bb clarinets come in 2 acoustical identities; the "American" and "Euro" styles. Scott's test always included our "Euro" style clarinet. Most often when a clarinetist is testing our instruments they are quickly drawn toward one of our 2 styles within a short period of time. This division of preference has consistantly remained 50/50 although our Varese "American" style clarinet is certainly more popular amoung younger players. At ICA Vancouver we also had positive feedback from clarinetists testing a prototype of our new "Traditional" model which will be introduced soon. In the future it would be fun to try this test with a greater cross section of models from all the different makers.
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Author: joeyscl
Date: 2007-07-15 07:13
It's quite easy to tell one from another by the Keyworks... so i guess the blindfold is for people who haven't tried the clarinets already...
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-07-15 10:41
I find it very interesting that people did not always like their own clarinets, as you say. Did anyone in the test ask, is this my clarinet?
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-07-15 15:55
I've been playing on Buffets (2, only) for the last 40-years or so. I've had good luck using a borrowed Yamaha plastic student model when Boofy was in the shop; and I've played borrowed a pro-level Yamaha A for a recital.
Recently, I've been playing a carefully selected (by Walter Grabner) Buffet RC.
So, armed with a balanced reed and my Livengood/Zinner mouthpiece, I attacked the wonderful collection of demonstration clarinets at ClarinetFest. I am on the lookout for the perfect A (I can afford it, and it plays a whole lot like my RC).
The top Leblancs (unbearable two-tone coloring ignored) play very well, and so do the top Buffets --not distinguishable to me. I also liked the Orsi & Weir. There an an Orsi&Weir European bore Bb in Cocobollo that stirred a deep lust for chamber work. Also wonderful were the Andino (by Rossi) student horns and the rich sounding and feeling Forte C.
On the other hand, I didn't get along well with the Yamahas nor the Rossis.
I was surprised to find that the keywork on all the instruments I tried was comfortable, and that my fingers went to the right places. (The Forte C was tight).
Over night, I realized that ALL of the better horns ran up into the altissimo register much more comfortably than my own Buffet RC; so next day, I went in search of the magic tuning barrel. With John Weir's generous help, we found it amongst the dozens he had at his booth. I've "dabbled" in barrels before, but never found a spectacular improvement. I think that John's coaching and his large inventory provided a far better trial environment that the conventional 3-at-a-time method.
Bob Phillips
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Author: scott kurtzweil
Date: 2007-07-16 12:32
No . . . no one ever asked about the clarinets being their own. They did take pause or noodled a bit longer on them but never came forward with the expected "This is my clarinet!".
Scott Kurtzweil
Kurtzweil Musical LLC
www.kurtzweilmusical.com
269-340-9013
scott@kurtzweilmusical.com
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-07-16 14:10
I think that blinded testing is actually a cool way to play test instruments because depriving visual sensory input - looking at the horn - enhances your need to get the most out of the sound sensory experience. Granted, LeBlanc keywork, if you are familiar with it, is different than Buffet but not knowing if you are playing an R-13, or Vintage model tweaks your concentration and not knowing if it is a LeBlanc or Orsi & Weir also makes you concentrate more on the sound without the preconceived bias that you may have for "name" brand instruments. It is weird that players could not tell their own instruments apart from the new instruments but very telling that they preferred the new instruments. Are our own clarinets out of adjustment and we just cannot recognize it on a daily basis? Good work Scott for closing our eyes and opening our ears!
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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