 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2007-06-17 18:03
One of my students, who is a very accomplished player (NYSSMA All-State), is having difficuty with very long phrases, as he runs of out air.
He has an excellent tone and no air is apparently wasted by a leak at the corners of the embouchure, or an incorrect mouthpiece/reed set up, thus I suspect either he is just not inhaling deep enough or expelling the air too quickly, not rationing it.
We've worked at length trying to build up his ability to sustain long phrases, but I'm now seemingly at a dead end.
I've already done the obvious things - long tones, phrase studies, crescendo/decrescendo exercises, etc..
My next move is having him run a few miles with me, after each lesson ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Any additional suggestions for increasing air capacity? ...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-06-17 18:20
You've probably already done this but, just in case, where there is a long enough rest before a long phrase, have you tried having him take a deep breath, do a forced exhale and then another deeper breath for the phrase?
Best regards,
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2007-06-17 18:25
Surprisingly it's so obvious that I've forgotten to use that technique. 
Excellent suggestion...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bob49t
Date: 2007-06-17 18:53
GBK................. see...........................
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=228763&t=228599
agree with Jack.
Could it be that your student is taking in too much air without "ridding" CO2?
This adds to distress and oxygen debt eventually to the inability to sustain the length of phrase req'd at crucial "musical" times.
For the above thread... go down to Jez and bob49t at bottom. This may just round it up.
Bob
(This of course pre-supposes no underlying reduction in normal lung capacity)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: William
Date: 2007-06-17 19:16
Using a softer reed would increase the efficiency of air use for tone production. My old clarinet professor always said that most clarinetists use reeds that are too hard in their attempts for that "dark" sound rather than using embouchure control.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Clarinet4hire
Date: 2007-06-17 19:23
bob49t: "student is taking in too much air without "ridding" CO2?
This adds to distress and oxygen debt eventually to the inability to sustain the length of phrase req'd at crucial "musical" times."
This is a HUGE problem that I have never been able to master. It is, in my opinion, the Biggest reason I cannot get the gigs. It may be elementary, but none of my teachers have been able to help me win this battle. I've always been told to fill my lungs as deep as I can with every breath. Sure, this has fixed my pitch issues, but I can't sing on the clarinet now either- because eventually I start to panic from needing to exhale in the middle of an important phrase, where this just isn't anywhere to do this and set up for another breath. It is if I start to hyperventilate.
I've basically thought it was simply because I am overweight. However, I have seen many overweight clarinetists sing wonderfully through long, important phrases. So I don't know if I should buy it as simply a weight issue, or something else. I'll read the article.
(Sorry GBK, I won't take over your thread.)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-06-17 19:53
Some people are just more "talented" than others. Some just have much more air. I remember seeing the world record holder of holding your breath under water, and he did it for over 7 minutes (maybe more I'm not sure). I can do it for maybe 40 seconds at most. He could hold it for a few minutes the first times he ever tried. Some people can barely hold their breath for 15 seconds or even less. Of course this doesn't mean your student can't improve.
Clarinet4hire, I don't know if being overweight has anything to do with it but I know it possibly doesn't. A local clarinetist that is VERY fat has excellent breath control, one of the best in the country maybe.
Post Edited (2007-06-18 03:52)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-06-17 20:25
Quite a few V G ideas above, GBK, I'll try to add something, since I've been blessed with good [VG?] lungs and no smoking for some 78 years of playing. #1 Try to get your student to learn to play bass, perhaps alto, cl which [may IMHO] require more attention to breath control than the sops do. I often have [on bass] many [6-12] Slow measures holding a low note along with tubas etc, so have to take a "quickie" breath or two, at the times the other "holders" dont. I seldom have "anoxia", lack of O2, doing it, but did suffer while playing oboe, didn't quite fall out of my chair a time or so !! Low volume, high pressure ! #2 Our cl-playing conductor often tells our band sop cl'ists to mark when/where to breath in long passages , seems to work. Had another thot, but lost it . Will reed all. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hans
Date: 2007-06-17 20:58
GBK,
I liked Don Berger's suggestion to have the student play a larger instrument for a while. My air management ability seems much better after I've been playing tenor sax. 45 years ago I played baritone sax and that used to make me "see stars" from hypoxia occasionally, but it was a good way to build capacity.
Breathing too deeply could be a problem too, since the lungs may feel stressed and want to release some air right away.
Regards,
Hans
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bob49t
Date: 2007-06-17 22:26
At the risk of teaching my granny to suck eggs.........
Just let's remember that the air we breathe in, is not primarily to "drive" the clarinet. We take breathing for granted and it's an innate response to a natural drive. It's to keep us alive dammit.
Under normal, non-clarinetting circumstances, if we exercise, we need a greater throughput of air. This means greater and deeper breaths both IN AND OUT.
We breathe out expended air. ie air that's been into all these little lung places, where the wee red cells in the very fine capillaries have sucked out the oxygen we need to function ....and where CO2 (mainly) has been deposited. It's the out breath that rids us of this toxicant.
This is where WE come in. Our wind player's "breath control" is really how we control the rate of disposal of potentially lethal gas, AND make that plank vibrate as musically as we can. So for some, there's a fine line between a musical performance and losing consciousness !
There's a thought..... that should put an extra edge on a nervous performance!!!
So...... as our octet guru says " it's much more important to breathe out efficiently than to take in a big breath". This is SO TRUE.
BobT............. (sorry diatribe not originally intended)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: joeyscl
Date: 2007-06-18 00:16
running a few miles wouldn't hurt anyone
If THAT doesn't work... atleast he's burning some fat
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-06-18 01:44
GBK,
Here is a thread that I started two years ago that while the focus was toward seniors, maybe some of the notions might be helpful.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=189502&t=189456
I still have the same problem i originally described but have been able to manage it by really concentrating on taking much deeper breaths when I have the chance. When standing for a long time though, I think old-age is the culprit. When sitting, I can play ad play with no fatigue or shortness of breath.
HRL
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hartt
Date: 2007-06-18 03:14
GBK
I did a search but could not locate the article.............
It's an article written by Ken Shaw addressing how to build up one's wind.
He mentioned something about stuffing the Bell with a rag and trying to blow.
There's more to the article than what I've shared. Wish I could have located it
regards
dennis
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2007-06-18 03:26
hartt wrote:
> GBK
>
> I did a search but could not locate the article.............
>
> It's an article written by Ken Shaw addressing how to build up
> one's wind.
> He mentioned something about stuffing the Bell with a rag and
> trying to blow.
>
> There's more to the article than what I've shared. Wish I could
> have located it
I think this is the one you are thinking of:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=113165&t=113147
with additional links contained in the thread ...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2007-06-18 04:38
Here's another tactic. Take a breath on top of another breath before that very long phrase.
Freelance woodwind performer
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-06-18 12:39
TKS, Hans, I feel that my bass cl "teaches" me how to breathe efficiently. I can still [nearly20 years ago] recall playing bari in a big band in Silverton,CO, elev. 10,300, air needed about every measure ! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-06-18 13:16
GBK, you are on the right track. Actually, it might help him to take him for a brisk walk or jog. He might have low lung capacity because he doesn't exercise much. Assign him a 1 to 2 mile walk (or jog) each day to build up his lung power. Along, of course, with the other suggestions and forgotten techniques . The walking really helped me. He can practice inhaling and holding and exhaling while walking.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-06-18 14:32
Try having your student blow hot and cold. Have him "breath" on his hand to feel warm air. Then have him change is air tract to blow cold air.
Then, get him to play blowing "cold" air. Cold air lasts longer!
(This advice is passed along from the last CLARInexus at Eastern Washington University earlier this spring.)
Bob Phillips
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jamietalbot
Date: 2007-06-18 14:39
I find that taking a really slow breath before a long phrase helps.
Slow in-slow out.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: doublej
Date: 2007-06-18 15:30
GBK
I would like to suggest instead of jogging swimming. I was a swimmer in my younger days and the advantage that swimming has over running is that you can force yourself not to breath at anytime that you wish. You can actually practice your exhaling in a manor similar to playing the clarinet. For instance if you are swimming freestyle you can start with breathing and exhaling in the water every two strokes then keep adding more strokes till you breath. Not only does it help with increasing lung capacity but it also trains you to deal with being deprived of oxygen. You have to learn to keep your body calm and not get excited and cost yourself oxygen which to me is very similar to playing clarinet.
the other thing that I used to do is take a very deep breath and then take another small breath. You can do this and continue to increase the small breaths thereby increasing the amount of air that your body gets used to taking in.
I wish you and your student the best of luck trying to find a solution to this problem.
jeff
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ABerry
Date: 2007-06-18 16:16
GBK,
I was able to increase my lung capacity, by playing the second movement of the Mozart Clarinet Quintet…I set the metronome a 40 and only took a breath on the rests…I got the idea from Layton Davis of the Vermont Symphony. I saw him perform the Quintet back in the late 70’s. After a particularly long phrase, he finally took a breath, as did the whole audience…it was kind of a cool effect.
Allan
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: wrowand
Date: 2007-06-18 16:24
If I understand the post correctly, I agree with Jamietalbot. I've seen many students who are trained by their school band directors to wait until just before their entrance to breath in (in tempo). I think the goal is to help them internalize the tempo prior to their entrance as an aid to making a good in-tempo entrance.
The problem is that it can also create a lot of tension, which doesn't help your lung capacity. So if you have more time before a particularly long solo, it's better to take a long in-breath (out of tempo), just prior to your entrance. If you have even more time, then a few in and out breaths prior to that will help as well.
Also, the long in-breath shouldn't be a "long in-breath and hold". Having air bottled up also creates tension.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bufclar
Date: 2007-06-18 17:01
After my years in conservatorys, I can easily understand the people and comments Kevin is bringing up for discussion. One thing that many young, talented conservatory students fail to realize ( myself included back then) is performing in a major symphony full time is not the easiest job in the world.
As students, we have it quite easy in comparison. Most conservatory students might play 4-12 (give or take) symphony concerts a year (maybe more if at a major summer festival like Aspen or Tanglewood). It's easy to pick apart performances and performers but I challenge most conservatory students to perform at their very highest level for about 50-70 concerts a season. Combine a very active schedule with the ups and downs of regular life and I bet the job that seems so great and easy to us outsiders can become quite difficult. I think it's hard for a group the size of a major symphony to be on all the time. I think this is what makes live music so great.
Everyone should have an opinion about what they like and what players they admire but to be closed minded about music and musiciains is a waste and being closed minded about these things I think can really slow a students progress. There is no one way in music. Music is alive and subjective and the more students learn to find value and worth in different groups and performers, the more they will learn about themselves and the better their music making will become.
When I have critical comments to make after a concert, I always try to
supliment each negative observation with a positive one. Maybe I heard a beautiful trombone sound or a very clear viola line. Maybe the overall picture was nice while the small parts were a little off. I find that when I have this mindset at a concert my mind stays open to all of the wonderful things that makes me love music. Other wise, I make the music dead and never give a chance to the performers or the piece.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: musiciandave
Date: 2007-06-18 20:48
Air-Incentive Spirometer can be bought from a medical supply store. (sometimes you need a prescription, depends on state?)
Instead of breathing in, have him breath OUT with it and practice holding the ball in a specific spot (such as 1/2 way up the tube, etc).
But it sounds like he isn't expelling enough of his old air to take a full new breath as mentioned previously.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clariniano
Date: 2007-06-19 00:00
My first clarinet teacher taught me that if a student doesn't have enough breath to play a long phrase, then you should work down the tempo from the speed that they can play it in one breath, a couple of notches at a time.
Another strategy I use with my students is a variation on backwards practicing--have them play the last bar of the phrase in one breath, repeat that several times, then do the previous bar of the phrase with the bar they already know, and so on, until they can play the entire phrase in one breath.
You can even use these strategies in combination--I had to with one of my 10 year old clarinet students who just started working on Grade 4 clarinet two weeks ago (did his Grade 2 exam a couple of weeks ago, just waiting for his mark). (I'll try to post a youtube video of this student)
Meri
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GoatTnder
Date: 2007-06-19 02:18
Interesting stuff being posted here. I've had fairly small lungs my entire playing career. Not from lack of activity, but rather from growing up in Riverside, CA (where the smog in summer is like smoking two packs a day).
The answer for me has been to practice taking bigger breaths in shorter periods of time. A technique I learned from a singer was to open my mouth wide before breathing in. This has the double advantage of allowing more air in (because your throat also opens when your mouth does), and of naturally opening your throat when you go to sing/play. Instant tone improvement and air capacity! Nowadays I can get my lungs full in about a quarter second. This breathing I've been doing for about 8 years now.
As for super long passages... um... pray? Learn to circle breathe?
Andres Cabrera
South Bay Wind Ensemble
sbwe@sbmusic.org
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-06-19 13:27
Musiciandave's post reminded me of my Voldyne 5000 "inhalator?" [Hudson RCI] supplied to me following heart bypass [4] surgury in Tulsa. It makes "measurements" of both inhaled volume and pressure[reduction] and, with some push from Dr's and family, it did a fine job of clearing my lungs and perhaps improving them beyond previous. I went back to playing bass cl in a few weeks, am still at it , will be 88 shortly. Breathe ! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2007-06-19 14:16
GoatTnder wrote:
>> The answer for me has been to practice taking bigger breaths in shorter periods of time.>>
I've written about this before, eg in:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=20&i=714&t=714
...but it's worth mentioning again that in order to do what Andy suggests, it helps to be playing with MAXIMUM SUPPORT just before the breath.
'Playing with maximum support', for a given dynamic, means that your abdominal muscles, and therefore your diaphragm, are maximally flexed in opposition to each other; so that when you get to the breath, a sudden relaxation of the abdominals enables the 'already working' diaphragm to draw in a large amount of air in a short time.
So as you come up to the breath, carefully increase the flexion of your abdominal muscles as though to protect yourself from a punch in the gut.
Immediately after the breath, it's not difficult to have the abdominals return exactly to their previous flexion; and so playing can resume at exactly the same dynamic (if required).
It's amusing to practise taking breaths in 'silly' places: between bars 1 and 2 of the Mozart concerto slow movement, for example -- it's surprising what you can conceal if you REALLY try:-)
Tony
Post Edited (2007-06-20 11:57)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D Dow
Date: 2007-06-19 17:58
Kose method has some interesting comments on respiration...semi respiration etc . al.
David Dow
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: MichaelR
Date: 2007-06-19 21:26
musiciandave wrote:
> Air-Incentive Spirometer can be bought from a medical supply
> store. (sometimes you need a prescription, depends on state?)
A quick web search finds them for $6.99. If that's an approach the student will take the cost is no barrier.
--
Michael of Portland, OR
Be Appropriate and Follow Your Curiosity
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2007-06-19 23:50
Ken Shaw wrote:
>> I finally rediscovered the address for Chris Krueger's great exercises. Go to:
http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~krueger/index.htm
and click on "Exercises" and then on "Breathing.">>
So, I know and have played with Chris. But I have to say that these instructions are confusing to a clarinet player, and especially to a clarinet player trying to understand what 'support' is.
"The ribcage must be held expanded (open, or think of your sternum held high) throughout the breathing process; not in a tense way but with a balanced posture. It shouldn’t move during inhaling or exhaling (in an ideal world). Stomach muscles should be relaxed."
Are we here talking about breathing in general, or about what happens when we are 'blowing'? Probably just in general -- but then, what happens when we are 'blowing' is a different story.
"The torso should be balanced so that front, side, and back muscles are in equilibrium. Inhaling should be part of the music. Inhale in tempo and in character. Never hold your breath."
So now, we're 'blowing'. But sometimes I need to 'hold my breath' -- say, before playing the opening of the slow movement of the Schubert Octet, so as not to be sharp. Is this forbidden?
"Inhaling and exhaling should feel like one circular motion. Think of a violin bow. Listen to the pitch of your inhale. It will tell you whether your throat is open (elongated) or not. Breathe out by gently pushing up under your ribcage without moving your chest. Then breathe in by simply relaxing (breaking the vacuum), keeping your ribcage expanded."
This seems to me something that might apply to a flute player rather more than a clarinet player. (Or not?)
"Exercises:
1. Lie on the floor with a book on your chest and a book on your stomach to help isolate chest and stomach movements. Breathe by moving only the book on your stomach."
Good.
"2. Lean your back against a wall with your feet out a foot or so from the wall and your back crammed flat against the wall to help keep your ribcage expanded. Next, away from the wall, try to take small breaths and feel that your stomach, sides, and back are all equally pushed out by the diaphragm moving down. Remember, don't try to breathe in, if you breathe out with your ribcage expanded and keep it expanded, all you have to do is let go and the air will come flowing in. Let the incoming air pull your throat down as well. Also try small breaths from the front, sides, and back, separately and in sequence."
Good -- but more interesting as an 'awareness' exercise than anything else.
"3. The Abdominal Lift: Bend over and forcefully exhaust all the air from your lungs. Then close your throat and stand up holding your chest as high as possible, thereby sucking your gut up underneath your ribcage. Hold this a second, then, still holding your chest up, simply open your throat and let the air rush in. Don't try to inhale, just let it happen. You can hear if your throat is tight. If your stomach muscles are tense, the air will come in slowly. If everything is relaxed and open the air will fill your lungs almost instantly. (It should feel as if it is filling your stomach.) Also do this exercise by placing your hands on your bended knees and arching your back as much as possible."
Well, this seems to say that your stomach muscles should be relaxed in order to breathe in, which is just obvious given an understanding of the diaphragm/abdominal opposition.
"Resistance Exercises:
1. Long, slow, inhale with resistance. Create a lot of resistance with your lips against your teeth, so that this inhalation takes at least 45 seconds. Remember, don't try to breathe in. Breathe out by pushing up underneath your ribcage, then just relax. Feel the air gradually moving down in your torso and try to relax all your stomach muscles as much and as low as possible. If you have trouble making resistance with your lips or feel too stupid doing it, you can use a straw and pinch the end of it until you get the proper amount of resistance. Time these exercises."
OK.
"2. Long, slow exhale with resistance. Same thing. Remember: don't hold your breath. Don't force the air out, just supply very gentle pressure and try to feel the air moving from very low in your abdomen to up under your ribs.
3. Nearly the same resistance, but breath in and out quickly and repeatedly. This is for strength and to feel what muscles are used.
4. Same as number one, except without resistance. Open your throat and breathe in as evenly as possible. The difficult thing is to be very smooth and even and to take as much time inhaling as in number one.
5. Same as number two but without resistance. This can be done with something of a flute embouchure. Same amount of time as before, and as smooth, even, and as effortless as possible."
Of course, ANY exercises are valuable, in a way.
But I very much doubt whether any understanding of the underlying situation is conveyed by the description of these particular ones. They seem rather to convey the message that the student reading them doesn't really have a proper experience of what is required, and that they need to understand something rather arcane in order to play well.
I have no doubt that Chris is trying to help -- and he's a great player. But, as a clarinettist, and putting myself back where I was before I understood how all this stuff works, I have to say that I'd have found it confusing.
Tony
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2007-06-21 01:26
He may be using too much air. Have him try to put the air under more pressure-2 or 3 times as much pressure- while using half the air. Also, if there are high notes in the passage, these can be played with very little air and they will still sound loud. Low register notes can also be played with very little air as long as there is lots of air pressure. It's not the amount of air it's the way that you use it.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Verygoodman
Date: 2007-06-21 02:50
I once worried about musically inappropriate breath taking which happened especially while playing long etudes like "Caprice 30". I had to take some breaths at unexpected places. Now I have overcome completely by the following excercise.
1. Completely going through "Hand in hand with Hanon" written by famous Buddy DeFranco, which was found to be the very best etude I ever tried with building accurate tonguing, flexible fingering, strengthening embouchure, etc.
2. Another great excercise is, I wonder whether this is appropriate for your student, doubling with Alto (or tenor, etc.) sax. I seriously practiced the same etude "Hand in hand with Hanon" by alto sax because this is transcription of Hanon etude for mainly clarinet but also for other wood instruments. This excercise greatly contributed to solving this problem, and now I can play long phrases without any anxiety.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Katrina
Date: 2007-06-21 04:45
Breathing bag!
Larry McDonald had me much better off after four years of that, 20 minutes at a time every day.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jacqueline
Date: 2007-06-21 07:48
ABerry and doublej have got it...
As we all know, practice makes perfect...
As doublej says, swimming is THE best way to work out your lungs. I used to swim freestyle taking breath every 3 strokes but now, becuse I want to work on my lung capacity for playing, I am stretching it to every 4 strokes.
However if you don't want to swim, Aberry has the key: try all your three octave scales and arpeggios at a strict metronome tempo. Once you have found the tempo that enables you to play the whole thing in one breath, start slowing your metronome down and bit by bit, it will become much easier to sustain a quality sound for a longer period of time.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
