 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bill
Date: 2007-06-12 20:41
Attachment: borbeck 1.jpg (46k)
Attachment: borbeck 2.jpg (47k)
Attachment: borbeck 3.jpg (49k)
Attachment: borbeck 4.jpg (43k)
Nothing but idle, unmusical equipment curiosity here, but ... I've just come into possession of a Borbeck 11 from the late 1970s and was curious what blanks he might have been using back then. My guess is either Chedeville or Babbitt. Does anyone know? I know some Babbitts were three lines down.
Has nothing to do with the way it plays, of course. It's really nice.
Bill.
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Author: musica
Date: 2007-06-13 22:32
I acquired a Borbeck 11 three years ago from an e-bay purchase. The description said it was from a collection of a former student of Frank Kaspar. It said it was
hard rubber, a Kaspar style 11, 3 lines down and one up and said it was a rare
vintage blank steelite ebonite. Measurements are: 110.34/22/12/6.
I use it as a spare. Wondered how similar the dimensions on yours were.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2007-06-13 23:47
Thanks. Mine is not a Steel Ebonite. Also, I don't have the equipment (or skill) to make measurements of mouthpieces.
I had a Borbeck some years back that was different from the two I have since acquired. All were the three-lines-down blank, but that first one was different, and its appearance was - somehow - more like the Charles Bay (and Ch. Chedeville "scroll") mouthpieces of the 1960s.
I have learned from a revered poster here, and an authority on Kaspars and Borbecks, that even later Ciceros were made from Babbitt blanks that looked like Cheds but were not.
Thanks for your comment.
Bill.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
Post Edited (2007-06-13 23:48)
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Author: Carol Dutcher
Date: 2007-06-14 00:31
His address is
PO Box 13764
Las Vegas, NV 89112-1764
I am sure that he is probably listed in the LV phone book.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-06-14 00:40
It's a piece of cake to make ligature lines but the Babbitt blanks did not have them.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Bill
Date: 2007-06-14 00:47
How sure are you Vytas? I did read that later Ciceros, identical in almost every respect to Chedeville blanks, were Babbitts.
Bill.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-06-14 01:52
Some later Ciceros also have barely visible "France" on the left side.....
There's no such thing as "identical in almost every respect to Chedeville blanks". Babbitt blanks are like 'day and night' in comparison to Chedeville. I've never seen a Cicero Kaspar on a Babbitt blank. They might exist though.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-06-14 23:24
Chedeville went out of business in the 70's so it would be logical to think that later Kaspars used some other blanks than Chedeville. But I think it's not entirely true. I personally got some NOS Chedeville blanks in 1999. A week ago I received an offer from France to purchase genuine NOS Chedeville mouthpieces from the 60's. This stuff is still floating around in the 2007, so I do not think that it was a problem for both Kaspars getting these blanks if they wanted to several decades earlier.
Some poster in the past identified the Babbitt blank as having shorter beak. That's true but if you compare "Qualite Superieure" Chedeville blanks to the "one line up and three down" later blanks you easily notice that QS blanks have longer beaks (kind of V. profile 88). Both blanks have been used by Kaspars. To assume that blanks with shorter beak are Babbitts would be incorrect.
I'm not claiming that Kaspars never used them. I'm just saying I've never seen any Kaspar on the Babbitt blank and I've seen plenty.
Vytas Krass
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Professional clarinet technician
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Bill
Date: 2007-06-15 14:38
Attachment: backs.jpg (121k)
Attachment: tables.jpg (109k)
Thanks Vytas - interesting!
I thought it might be interesting to compare the mouthpieces I have with "3-lines-down." So I photographed them. Now that I've done it, I see it illustrates ... nothing at all. LOL!!! I included in the group a three-lines-down blank marked "FRANCE" (and "G8") that Vytas had identifed a couple of years ago as a Riffault (it is not marked with any maker's name).
For years now I have tried to piece together all the information I've been able to get about Chedeville mouthpieces (either marked as such, or blanks). That is mainly because I have a fascination with old equipment, even while I acknowledge that much brand new stuff is as good or better than the old.
I have this idea that 3-lines-down blanks existed at the same time as QS (most often 2 lines down) blanks, and possibly even at the same time as the 1-line-down ones. For me, all these different Chedeville markings seem to have been in circulation all at the same time. It does seem that all the "scroll" stuff came later, and did not last very long (as long as, say, the QS 2-lines-down).
And as I said, of course, this has little to do with music. But it can be interesting, a sort of real-life detective story.
Bill.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
Post Edited (2007-06-15 20:17)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-06-17 22:55
Attachment: Riffault_SE.JPG (60k)
Attachment: Lelandais_White_Symphony_1.jpg (8k)
Attachment: Babbitt_blank.JPG (42k)
The Riffault with the question mark is still a Riffault and it originated from this blank pictured.
The Sayre mouthpiece has wide spread three lines. Many experts believe that mouthpieces with wide spread three lines are not Chedeville/Lelandais blanks. But they are all wrong! This blank is real Chedeville/Lelandais. Check these lines on the White Symphony and I think you will not have any further questions.
Borbeck is made from Chedeville blank but the blank is much older than you have indicated. It's from the 40's-50's.
The real puzzle is the Kaspar Cicero. It's not a Babbitt blank but it does not look like the regular Chedeville either. First of all it's shorter and it looks like one of the bottom three lines may not be original but rather added later. Babbitt blanks are wider at the tip looking from the beak side. (Check the Babbitt blank in the picture and compare it to the White Symphony). Beak shapes are completely different in comparison to the Chedeville/Lelandais. It's possible that this is one of these rare and altered by Kaspar Chedeville blanks made to match Selmer CT clarinets.
Vytas Krass
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Professional clarinet technician
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2007-06-17 23:18)
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Author: Bill
Date: 2007-06-18 00:47
Fascinating! The Cicero came with a group of Kaspars purchased by my former clarinet teacher and refaced by him. The blanks had been heavily messed up ("refaced" is too delicate a word) by the previous owner. So it was a sort of rebuild/rescue job. It's a good-playing mouthpiece but, of course, hardly an original Kaspar. I retain it as a sort of vaccination against acquiring any more Kaspars (it is the only one I have ever had or played).
Bill.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
Post Edited (2007-06-18 12:23)
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Author: Bill
Date: 2007-06-19 22:29
Attachment: France.jpg (75k)
Under cover of this same subject thread, I will ask a question I've always wanted to ask.
I have two mouthpieces that have the word "France" inscribed differently from my Ched and Riffault blanks.
The first mouthpiece is a Vito 2RV. The second is what I believe to be an old blank (1940s) that came in the case with my N series Selmer Paris clarinet. I think the second is what they call a "rod rubber" blank. It has that oily look and different feel to it.
Is anyone familiar with this "alternate" script for the word France? I can think of only two or three folks who might know (and that makes all of us who might care! LOL!).
Thanks. -Bill.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
Post Edited (2007-06-19 22:30)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-06-20 01:35
>"I have two mouthpieces that have the word "France" inscribed differently from my Ched and Riffault blanks".<
Bill,
This is not an "alternate" script. Mouthpieces with this marking belong to one of the companies you've mentioned. I'll post couple of pictures tomorrow so you could solve "this puzzle" for yourself. This way you don't have to put a question mark like you did before. ![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-06-20 23:47
Bill,
pic1. If you recognize the border, you already know who made this mouthpiece.
pic2. In case you don't, here's the clue.
Vytas Krass
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Professional clarinet technician
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2007-06-20 23:54)
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Author: Bill
Date: 2007-06-21 00:37
Fascinating - I wouldn't have guessed it. Riffault blanks seem to have been so similiar in appearance to Chedevilles of that era - intentionally, I guess. I wonder whether Frank Kaspar used Riffault blanks, because I suspect my Kaspar (in photos above) might be a Riffault. Other than overall height (Vytas noted the Kapsar is shorter), I think the Riffault in the group photo looks a lot like the Kaspar.
Thanks for clarifying this question I've had for so long. Incidentally, the Riffault mouthpiece that came in the case with my series N Selmer has the widest throat opening I have ever seen in any mouthpiece - almost the entire width of the interior (chamber) itself.
Bill.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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