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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-04-29 20:02
I'm trying to slowly teach myself double tonguing. I'm trying the "t-k-t-k" method. Touch the reed, then raise the back of my tongue to the roof of my mouth. Problem is, I can pronounce "t-k-t-k" fine without a clarinet in my face, but once I start to put air throught the instrument, I get a 'suction' when trying to hit the "k" of the double tongue. It definitely shouldn't be there, but it is, and I'm wondering if anyone can perhaps shed some light on what MIGHT be happening and maybe a way to counter it.
Alexi
PS - I'm also working slowly with the paintbrush method outlined in the Art of Clarinet Playing, but find (at least without the mouthpiece in my mouth) "t-k-t-k" to be more natural and easier to control. But once the airstream begins, it gives me problems.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2007-04-29 22:34
Just sitting here at the computer, and manipulating my tongue with different sounds, but might not the syllables "Deedle-deedle-deedle" approximate better the "paintbrush" method and prevent more of that suction?
Again, no clarinet to hand, just "mouthfeel."
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-04-30 11:47
Thank you for that link, Dennis. It has a couple of suggestions that may help me out. I was using the same article that Mr. Fobes was using, the one from Robert Spring.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: William
Date: 2007-04-30 14:28
Kat--you need to use the tip of your tongue to pronounce all of the d's in "deedle-deedle-deedle", etc, so it really isn't double tonguing. Perhaps you were thinking dah-gah, dah-gah which uses the back of the tongue to produce the gah sound.
sfalexi--double tonguing is far from "perfect" in that there is definately a "suction" feel to the "k" articulation. To minimize this, you need to keep your breath support as steady as possible, especially on the k's. And the higher you go, the worse it gets. Using a stiffer reed helps a little, but the problem you are experiancing never goes away. Even Robert Spring is forced to slur some of the high parts of his "Dragon's Tongue" CD. Double tonguing should only be used when going fast enough that these imperfections will be less noticable and (obviously) faster than you can single tongue. As we all know, single tonguing should always be the first choice.
There is another double tongue technique where you flip your tongue over the tip of the reed in up and down fashion--like saying, ta-der, ta-der. This is harder to control but gives a clear articulation in all registers. John Bruce-Yeh told me he used this style of double tonguing when he recorded the Neilson Clarinet Concerto, so it can be perfected with practice. The triple version of this is ta-der-ta, ta-der-ta. I find that when I use this method, it really irritates the underside of my tongue, but does not cause any damage to the reed. I'm working on this and actually used it during last weekends symphony concert where we played (ugh!!) the "William Tell Overture"--at warp speed. However, one method versus the other......time will tell.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2007-04-30 15:16
Actually, William, I'm using a part of the tongue about a quarter-inch back from the "tip" for the second syllable. And again, I still don't have a clarinet to hand to test this! 
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Author: Dan Oberlin ★2017
Date: 2007-04-30 20:43
The method William mentions is described at length in David Pino's book
"The Clarinet and Clarinet Playing". I was taught the TKTK method by Dr.
Deborah Bish who learned it from the dragon's mouth, so to speak, as
her Ph.D. supervisor was Bob Spring. She had me practice the syllables for
a significant period of time first without the clarinet. Perhaps TKTK is
misleading. If I try to duplicate the syllables I use now, but without the instrument in my mouth, if feels more like tikitiki. The ki seems to be
pronounced fairly far forward in my mouth and the movements inside my
mouth are pretty minimal. I began with open G and spent a lot of time
there before moving to other notes. As has been mentioned in other threads,
decently executed double tonguing sounds a lot better to the listener than it
sounds or feels to the player. You can convince yourself of this by recording
your efforts.
D.O.
Post Edited (2007-04-30 21:32)
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Author: Chauncey
Date: 2007-05-01 02:50
I prefer to use too-koo to tee-kee, although I do have to adjust in the higher notes. Tee-kee closes my throat too much. I started out just thinking legato, and setting a metronome to 72 with as much subdivision as I could. I say that the most important part is keeping it legato and IN TIME. As soon as I mastered timing my throat to the beat exactly at even a slower tempo, the easier everything became.
....I also suggest you not spend too much time on it. Work for ten-fifteen minutes a practice section, and then whip out some Baermann III scales in thirds to rejuvenate your single tonguing.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2007-05-01 04:35
Double tonguing is a lifesaver in some circumstances for us slow single tonguers. I practice it in three ways, dug-guh for legato tonguing, te-ke for average spacing between notes, and tic-ket for very short notes.
The application of these tonguings would depend upon the speed and character of the music. Generally, the te-ke works good but for fast tempos, the notes need to be very short. The TTK tonguing that some brass players like has not been easy for me as I was taught TKTK from the beginning. Good Luck!
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2012-04-18 17:47
I am trying to learn double tonguing and thought it wiser to revive this thread rather than opening a new one.
Without the mouthpiece in my mouth I can single tongue at 138 and when playing the clarinet I can manage around 120. I am not sure if I do it the right way but when I try to double tongue, TKTK, without any mouthpiece the highest speed I can reach is around 160. Is that normal or too slow to even give real double tonguing a try? I have practiced double tonguing on the clarinet beginning at 60 bpm and is currently at 74.
I have mostly done TiKi but I can not manage any high speed, even without MP, and in the end I always get tongue tied. Is that something you generally can improve or are there just anatomical restrictions varying from individual to individual?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-04-18 18:03
Firstly, the "KEE" will always sound a little different than the "TEE"...... just get over that (actually this is good since it naturally expresses the stresses better in my opinion).
Secondly, it is MUCH easier in the chalumeau register than the clarion, and the clarion is easier than the altissimo.
To really get it, hover in the lower octave to start and really concentrate on EVEN subdivsions of the beat..............speed should come as a function of being correct.
What I don't understand in your case is that you have a decent speed for single tongue. If you can do an open "G" at 120 single tongue, you SHOULD be able to do 240 double tonguing pretty easily.
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2012-04-18 20:02
Yea I noticed that it was much easier below the break because of the lower resistance there required by me to make a decent "KEE".
I tried to follow your advice on speed coming as a function of being correct. Today I went from 16th at 74bpm to 80 in increments of 2 bpm. I tried for once without the metronome and probably managed an open "G" at maybe 130 or something.
240 double tonguing sounds much far off at the moment, which makes me a little worried actually. I mean I might be learning it the wrong way or lacking the basic prerequisites to achieve anything at all. Can you produce double tongues at twice the speed of your maximum single tonguing?
I imagine the tongue might have to travel some extra way after a TEE in order to make a KEE before another TEE, lengthening the time between two TEEs and thereby perhaps making it slightly improper to multiply one's top single speed by two in order to get an "easily" achievable double tonguing speed. Then, on the other hand, it might as well cause the tongue to move in a more refined way speeding up ST as well.
I watched the ultra sound on youtube of Mr Spring's tongue during DT and noticed how distal on the tongue he managed to make the KEE sound, probably a vital key to fast DT...
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Author: TianL
Date: 2012-04-18 20:59
Alexi, this is a good video on it (by Michael Rusinek):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRgKs5t86A&feature=plcp&context=C4b8f448VDvjVQa1PpcFP1TieAGaZnoAjT2ARcanpIOxpElNYQqBw=
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2012-04-18 22:15
Wow...blast from the past here....
I've set aside double tonguing for a while and just recently try it every now and then (have more important stuff to focus on right now). I did see that video before and it's a really good technique and a good method to try learning it. Right now I can get two sixteenths double tongued very well (if there's some sort of 16th/32nd pickup or something I can use double tongue), but at the speeds of most music, a single tongue does fine so I'm not too worried about it.
I do want to try it a little more and in a few months after I settle in a new area and new band I'll probably start to incorporate about 5 minutes of double tonguing practice into my warmup routine, just to work on it.
As for the "suction" I was getting, I think I may have been 'accenting' the "K" syllable too hard. When I focused more on a "da-ga-da-ga" or "dee-gee-dee-gee", since that uses a lighter touch of the tongue to make a "g" sound, it seems to show more potential with less effect on the airstream. So my routine when I start it up will essentially be the same as that youtube video, with "da-ga-da-ga", focusing on lightness of the tongue, and minimal movement of the tongue on an open G, a chalemeau C, and will slowly work up to scalework. But as for now, there's no rush for me. My single tongue is developing well enough to allow me to articulate through whatever music I have to play so far, and by the time I get around to REALLY integrating it, my single tongue may be fast enough for all "normal" reportoire (albeit not at virtuosic speeds)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2012-04-19 06:05
Great video, hadn't seen that before. Seems difficult to find good instructional videos on this.
The impression I get is that it is best to take things slowly in the beginning and work on the fundamentals.
I would also like to get comments on my prevoius post.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2012-04-19 06:57
Today, I played three charming pieces arranged for orchestra from Chopin on my oboe and again found that without double tonguing, it would be hard to keep up with the flute on repeated sixteenths up to the top of the second register. In another group today, double tonguing saved me when playing "Pineapple Poll" on clarinet in a band. It is essential to me as my single tonguing is still not fast (big mouth, large tongue).
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2012-04-19 07:06
What is your (anyone's) maximum single tonguing speed and maximum double tonguing speed? (On clarinet and 16th)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-04-19 09:56
For steady 16th notes (over the course of a whole bar and beyond) my limit is around 120 beats per minute (or even a bit less actually). So I need double tonguing to achieve stuff like Rossini Semiramis, Mendelssohn Midsummer's Night Dream and Italian Symphony, etc.
There are folks who legitimately tongue 16ths at 160 beats per minute all day long (such as Julian Bliss) but I think this is NOT the norm. Your tongue is a muscle and muscles have their own physiological limits. Yes, proper technique will allow one to maximize their potential, but the bottom line is that one must KNOW their limit.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2012-04-19 10:22
So how fast is your double tongue at the moment? Any difference in speed if you do it with or without the clarinet?
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Author: TianL
Date: 2012-04-19 16:32
the best thing i've learned from that video is that after a lot of practice, double tonguing CAN sound pretty good and will be very effective.. so that kinda give me a confidence to keep working on it. otherwise since it sounds so terrible when ifirst practice it, mostly likely i wouldn't be able to continue.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-04-19 17:49
For me double tonguing does not exist without the clarinet. And it does effctively double the articulations. Triple tonguing is where the math is gets really mathematical. It doesn't triple your speed, it's more a function of arriving at the least common denominator between 4 and 3 so.............. it's faster but not nearly 3x (if that makes sense).
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-04-19 17:49
For me double tonguing does not exist without the clarinet. And it does effctively double the articulations. Triple tonguing is where the math is gets really mathematical. It doesn't triple your speed, it's more a function of arriving at the least common denominator between 4 and 3 so.............. it's faster but not nearly 3x (if that makes sense).
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2012-04-19 20:37
Interesting, perhaps the resistance in the clarinet and the MP in your mouth enable effective DT.
So you can DT at 240ish then, considering your ST lies at 120? Maybe Robert S is using some special ST technique enabling him to ST at 240, but if he wasn't he would, by analogy, be able to DT at 480. I did not quite get the LCD thing. Whatever it is shouldn't it be LCD between 2(TAKA) and 3(TATAKA)? Or maybe just settle with ST:DT:TT --> 1: 1.8: 2.1 for example, as it most probably differs between individuals?
I imagine that when the tongue moves from TA to KA and then back to TA it will take more time than when simply moving from TA to TA. Thus it should be improper to simply double the ST speed in order to get the DT speed. Additionally, I don't think anyone can do KAKA as fast as they can do TATA. However, that would also contradict your staement of TT being faster than DT, and I shouldn't really question measured effects
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-04-19 22:13
Would it be alright if I asked you not to abbreviate so much. That last post gave me a headache.
Seriously though, you should not be MOVING your tongue out of position. The "KEEs" are achieved by a point further back on your tongue coming in contact with the roof of your mouth to block the passage of air. So if you are doing these TWO separate things, doing them together (one after the other) should kinda sorta DOUBLE your speed (and also lets drop my 240 reference.....I only meant double the number of articulations within the same time).
Ok, well, you've forced me to analyze what I'm doing (I guess that's a good thing). The "KEEs" are NOT quite as brisk, so the absolute doubling (doubling at your fastest single tongue speed) is NOT possible. But it's certainly fast enough for ANY duple meter passage I've ever encountered. Of course for those of you out there that CAN single tongue swiftly.......don't worry about it.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2012-04-20 03:39
For me, short bursts (maybe two 4/4 measures) at [EDIT]132 i can single tongue. But i tire and slow down REAL QUICK after that, and i cant keep it up for a piece. 120 isnt a problem for me indefinitely, maybe even a little faster than that.
Just two eight notes, i use "rebound" tonguing and can be pretty quick. Probably a little faster than 140. Michele gringas had a video podcast series on clarinet techniques/secrets. You can still find it i believe, and her rebound tonguing way of thinking really helped me out.
To work on tonguing, i listen to clarinet music in my car. And sing along to it, tonguing the back of my teeth with the recordings as i sing with it. I attribute a lot of technique and speed development to the daily, constant working on tonguing like this. Not all your practice hAs to be with a clarinet in your hands, and this is something that can be done.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2012-04-20 03:54)
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2012-04-20 15:43
"The "KEEs" are NOT quite as brisk, so the absolute doubling (doubling at your fastest single tongue speed) is NOT possible." - Glad to have that confirmed. By the way, sorry for all the abbreviations in previous posts.
Yesterday I managed to single tongue scales in one octave, nine succeeding notes both in a descending and an ascending manner, at 126 bpm which probably is the fastest I have ever done. Still I envy your speed of 132. And when hearing that Julian Bliss can do 16ths at 160 all day long wheras Robert Spring tries 264 in a clip, although 16ths mixed with 8ths, it just confirm that everything is relative. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_x-KvZDJWI&feature=relmfu at 1:50
About tongue training outside the practice room one should try to be a bit discrete as people might start to wonder
I am happy to be an amateur being able to focus the little training time I get mainly on double tonguing at the moment. Though I am not sure I will reach my goal...
Post Edited (2012-04-20 19:09)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2012-04-20 20:21
The tongue slows down if you don't use it though. Muscle memory stays, you'll remember a scale, and remember being ABLE to tongue it faster, but the tongue muscle will just go away if you're not practicing it.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2012-04-21 10:49
That's why intend to keep ptacticing this. Though I believe that as an amateur one can learn new techniques enabling faster tonguing without forgetting the technique, just like biking.
The tongue is quite a fasinating structure. In addition to having papilla and lymphoid tissue its muscle arrangrement is not to be found anywhere else in the body. If you look through it in a histological slice you can see that it has striated muscle fibers in all three dimensions and they are actually quite perpendicular to each other.
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