 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-04-10 13:19
Well said,JJM, I've belonged for some 50 years, was an officer in 316, attended several conventions, very enjoyable, made many friends. When our membership declined, we joined 94, Tulsa, a good local. While I didn't get rich playing, some of the best times of my life were AFM- associated. Its very worthwhile. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: DougR
Date: 2007-04-10 13:21
Hear Hear!
As a member of three different unions, I've seen the benefits of union membership from both wage and humane-treatment standpoints. Moreover, when there's a problem with a particular employer, instead of a lonely voice pounding on the door, you have the union, and everybody in it, backing you up--and I've experienced that as well.
Everybody's got complaints about unions, but like someone said about democracy, it may be imperfect institution but nobody's yet come up with anything better.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-04-10 14:48
Maybe I'll try again, but about twenty years ago when I joined the Washington, DC local for a year, I found that the couple of Union gigs I got as the result of my membership barely (if that) covered the annual dues and initiation fee. As a part-time player, in a town where the vast majority of available gigs are non-Union, it may not be worthwhile to join. I'm not trying to dissuade anyone, just playing Devil's advocate.
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Author: RodRubber
Date: 2007-04-10 15:01
Dave,
If u want to play the best gigs in DC (NSO , or opera Sub, Nat phil, etc) u must join the union.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-04-10 15:13
Thanks, Rod -- the one really good gig I did get during my year in the DC local was subbing in the Opera House orchestra. But my point was that a semi-amateur player such as myself with no pedigree (complete lack of formal music studies and/or serious orchestral experience) is not going to get any gigs just by being a Union member. There are too many qualified and pedigreed players in town already for the limited number of jobs. So said the Grinch.....
I suppose 'ya gotta pay to play', but at some point it becomes an economic tradeoff.
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2007-04-10 15:54
"Ask not want the Union can do for you, but rather what YOU can do for your Union"
JFK (rip-off)
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-04-10 16:03
I agree, Dave, yes, points well taken, I'm no better than a semi-skilled player [also?], and only receive a modest "honorarium" on occasion anymore. But I recall a few instances where we "weekend warriors" would have not been paid by the promoters without either the threat or the action of our local. In addition to just-plain loyalty, I pay our modest [in the stix] dues to also keep alive a small insurance policy which our local provides, [via AFM I believe]. Just AM thots, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-04-10 16:09
I just saw the Ringling Bros. circus this past Sunday in Fairfax, VA. The band was very small and pretty good, although the lead sax player didn't sound good enough to me to be JJM! And by the way, I didn't hear a single note of clarinet the whole evening. Most of the sound I heard was synthesizer, electric bass, and drums (and for all I could tell those latter two instruments could have been synth tracks!). There was also lots of soprano sax (a bit thin-sounding and intonation could have been better) and quite a bit of trumpet and trombone. Overall, the circus was a disappointment, especially from a musical standpoint. I was surprised that the music was as contemporary as it was, though -- I was expecting traditional 'circus marches', but instead got mostly what I'd call 'smooth jazz' or semi-funk (not that I'm complaining about that aspect).
I have no idea if the musicians Sunday night were local cats or were travelling with the circus.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-04-10 16:27
lol. I don't think I could see myself joining a union anytime soon. I'd be too worried that I'd get a call to play somewhere and have that pressure of having to play well.
Besides, I'm a member of a much bigger union. Well . . . maybe union isn't really the word for it . . .
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2007-04-10 16:55
sfalexi, don't any of the military musician's belong to a Local?
Can you work off your Base doing Union jobs?
Don't you have to "play well" all the time?
What is the Military's position on Union affiliation for its members?
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-04-10 20:26
When I was in the union and stationed down at Fort Knox during the early 1970's, I worked a couple of summer replacement jobs (traveling shows) in Louisville during that time. All that I needed was the approval of my commanding officer (who could have cared less what I was doing in my off-time, just so long as I wasn't getting in trouble.
As has been stated many times over, being in the union will seldom get you work (although I have been called on three times based upon my directory entry since I've been in the union down here). Not being in the union will get you excluded from some types of work. And, in a closed shop state (most states outside of the South), not being in the union means that you don't work the classic "commercial" jobs (shows, symphonic work, the circus and so forth).
While the opportunities are still there in smaller numbers perhaps, they are still there. You will also expand your "network" of referral sources (if you are good enough to perform in the first place).
I've related my troubles when hiring a drummer in an emergency out of a local up in the Saint Louis area. The girl sent out (who the business agent assured me had had "a lot" of experience) turned out to be a polka band style drummer. Three rhythms - "boom-chck-chick-chick', "boom-chick" and "boom-chick-chick". She could not read a chart (we were doing Bye Bye Birdie) and had no idea of what 5/4 time was. In the end, we had a trumpet player play on her drum set (treating the payment to her as rental) and secured a real drummer the next day.
So, it is possible to get a bad apple out of the union barrel. But, for the most part, the brothers and sisters that I've worked with over the years have all been solid enough musicians.
The union did piss me off a bit when they amalgamated the two Houston locals (a combination of the old white and black union locals) with the Galveston local (which had been integrated since it was founded), and dropped the Galveston local number from the title. As a member of both, I guess I should just have been satisfied and left it at that.
The Performance Fund is supposedly dried up these days, but in the past I've known a number of string players who got a significant proportion of their income from Fund work. And, the recording benefits, as limited as they are in my case, still keep rolling in.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: redwine
Date: 2007-04-10 20:47
Hello,
There are no restrictions to joining the union while a military member.
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: DougR
Date: 2007-04-11 02:42
and, in answer to a question no one asked:
in a fairly tight commercial market, where the top jobs are all (or mostly) unionized, it tends to pull up the prevailing wage rates for everybody. this is true, I think, in all categories of work, not just musicians.
just puttin'in my 2c.
Also, if (and it's a BIG if) card-check got passed after the '08 elections, and suddenly IT workers in, say, a big law firm voted to unionize...I'd know I died & went to heaven!
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Author: rgames
Date: 2007-04-11 04:06
I'm glad this topic came up because I've been undecided about the AFM for some time.
I appreciate the need for solidarity among musicians but I must say that there are a lot of things I read in the IM that really turn me off to the union. "Vote for this", "don't vote for that", "Boycott Delta Airlines", etc. If I didn't read these types of articles every month I would have joined long ago.
I really think my principles are fundamentally different from those of the Union. I'm not looking for someone to dictate my politics - I just want to make some good music. I get the impression that the union thinks we're too dumb to figure out how to go about doing that. Of course, my primary source of income is not from music, so maybe I have a different perspective.
Undecided about AFM,
rgames
____________________________
Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
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Author: Wes
Date: 2007-04-11 06:29
The union insists on equal pay for equal work which is the law. Many non union or partly union orchestras where I live do not follow that rule, the contractor paying as little as possible or as much as needed to get the players. Thus, some orchestras in the shadow of the union have some players for free, some for below scale, some for scale, and some for above scale. The players are very anxious to perform in public, especially when work is hard to get, and don't say anything about it. No solution to this situation seems to be available.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-04-11 13:41
yeah. being in the military doesn't limit anything. You can still join the union, and play outside gigs. So long as they don't conflict with your military duties. So sometimes you can't accept jobs, or have to find a quick sub for yourself if you get last minute notice that you have a military gig on a day that you've accepted a job.
I was just joshing about joining the union. I probably won't for a little while because I think I still have a whole lot of practicing before I'm ready to accept outside gigs. But when I am ready, I'll definitely join whatever local union I'm around at the time.
Alexi
PS - As to the playing well part, I play to my best regardless of what or where I'm doing. I am a little upset at some of the players. How they can stay in the military at such a low playing level. But sometimes it seems it's not how well you play or perform but rather who you know and how much they like you. But that's neither here nor there.
On the other hand, the military (army at least) is raising their standards for musicians entering and for graduation the various courses. Pretty soon, the audition score to graduate the school will raise from 2.7 to 2.8, and to graduate BNCOC and ANCOC courses will be 2.85 and 3.0 respectively. I (and the rest of our band) received an email from our commander who verified this with the head of the army element at the school.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: bawa
Date: 2007-04-11 14:44
rgames,
I don't know about the other articles, but the Delta Airlines affair I saw well discussed on a strings forum. I think it was of benefit to all musicians to make a company see that their behaviour/ manners/rules were arbritrary and unreasonable in many cases.
Of course you are free to make your own mind but as a person travelling with musical instruments I would welcome information regarding which airlines were musician friendly and if any, as at the time with Delta, were likely to cause you trouble.
If a union was able to get a company to put a proper handling policy for musical instruments, I suppose we all benefitted.
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Author: rgames
Date: 2007-04-12 22:28
Well, the whole Delta issue is an enigma - it appears that the AFM leadership went pretty high up in the Delta management chain and basically got blown off. Did they expect anything else? If so, what was the point? A much better approach, in my opinion, would have been to set up talks with the flight attendants' union because they're the ones who make the decisions about carry-ons. Upper management at Delta couldn't care less about who carries what size bag on the plane. There are huge numbers of carry-ons, instruments or otherwise, that don't fit in the "Size Wise" check stations.
By the way, I average 5 - 6 flights a month on Delta and have seen plenty of larger instruments carried on board without incident. In fact, I have never seen anyone forced to check a guitar, violin, etc. I'm sure it happens but it doesn't seem very prevalent and I haven't noticed any difference in the behaior of the flight attendants on different airlines.
So the behavior of the AFM with regard to the Delta issue is a good example of my reasons for not joining the union (it's certainly not the only one). I can't see what they hope to get out of their continued propaganda other than developing a reputation for musicians as being cranky travelers and pre-disposing flight attendants against us. Maybe there's benefit in that, I just don't see it.
rgames
____________________________
Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
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Author: classicalguss
Date: 2007-04-13 19:45
I've never understood why people who join the AF of M complain about "the Union not getting them work". If you joined, say, the UAW, would you then expect a job with GM? The AF of M is a "protective association", not an employment agency. If all paid musicians were a part of the AF of M, it would be a much stronger entity. As it is, the ones who don't join are keeping wages and conditions down because they have no leverage. Believe me, I know what it is to play without union rules. It's not pretty and it isn't helpful in getting the best performances.
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Author: Buster Brown
Date: 2007-04-13 21:43
When I was 13 years old, I was forced to join the musician's union. Our young band was playing too many jobs at "union halls", and complaints were coming in from the older musicians. We showed up at the K of C Hall in Chicago's South Side to play a dance and found a free union band sitting on stage. We were told by the union rep, join the union, play for scale and all will be well. If you don't join, you won't play anywhere except an occassional school dance. This did not make us happy. However, the end result was, we joined the union, played more jobs and made more money then before.
I'm not sure that's an endorsement to join the union, but it worked for us. The strong arm tactics were not good.
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2007-04-14 04:48
Very simply friends, we are stronger united, as Union members, than we are as individuals trying to fight for our rights.
The large numbers of professional Union musicians in the U.S. and Canada right now, are getting better working conditions and wages than ever before.
Many of you are young, or are students; the Union has a plan that will suit your financial needs. You will not be forced to pay a lot up front to join, you may pay off your Union dues in installments. Then you will be a member of a strong group of professionals who can help you protect your work, and even point you in the right direction for new work.
It's a brotherhood/sisterhood of people who are interested in making music at the highest level..so be part of it. We NEED your young ideas, your strength, and your courage to help us continue to keep live music alive in this new world.
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: rgames
Date: 2007-04-14 20:06
As I mentioned above, only a portion of my income comes from gigs. Is the union trying to attract someone like me? If so, why do they insist on threatening penalties to union members taking below-scale gigs? I've done plenty of gigs for $50 - $100 and have enjoyed them immensely even if they barely cover the cost of travel. If I were a union member, I'd be at risk of getting fined for that! I know I'm not unusual in getting the majority of my income from something other than gigs - why does the union not seem to address the interests of folks like us? We're a huge portion of the music scenes in smaller markets...
rgames
____________________________
Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
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Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2007-04-16 02:40
When I was in high school, I used to go to a place called "Munchies" - its owner was the famous horn player Tom Bacon. It was a small restaurant in a very trendy part of Houston called "The Village" (near Rice U).
Anyway, it was a hangout for yuppies and musicians. There was a stage, and Tom had piles of music. We musicians would show up with our horns and put together impromptu jam sessions, reading duets, trios, quintets, quartets, whatever. A favorite of mine were the Rossini quartets - nasty little buggers, especially if you're sight reading. Here I was, in my teens, getting to play chamber music with college students and Houston Symphony members.
The Union shut down Munchies. It would not allow symphony members to hang out, have a few beers, and play chamber music in public unless they were getting paid scale. They decided that Tom Bacon, one of the best horn players in the world, was somehow taking advangtage of well paid professional musicians who were playing entirely voluntarily in his establishment just for fun. And thus the opportunity for young up and coming musicians, like myself, to play with major players who could mentor me, was also taken away.
Fortunately for me, Texas is right to work state. I play often. Sometimes I'm paid, and sometimes I'm not. I have the freedom to play when and where I want and under what conditions. I would never join an organization that takes that freedom away.
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2007-04-16 08:20
Quote:
Sometimes I'm paid, and sometimes I'm not. I have the freedom to play when and where I want and under what conditions.
I believe the union has its place. Certainly for people like John Moses and others who are professional musicians in the sense that their main income source is derived from performance, the Union is an asset. On the other end, for the part-timer, Union rules, regs and dues aren't worth the hassle.
When you don't have to worry where your income is coming from, say you have a steady fulltime office or public school teaching job, you have the freedom to say "No" to horrible gigs and working conditions the union protects its members against. There is a freedom of choice a hobbiest has, where we are not forced to take gigs to feed ourselves. We do it for fun and many are happy to get paid at all.
There is also a place for non-union musicians in keeping live music alive. I know of a few community choirs and theatres who would love to have a live orchestra or pit, but can't afford to pay union scale. Some are able to team up with a community instrumental groups, some go with just piano and the rest go recorded music. I also know of a few professional ballet companies which have now gone canned music due to budget crisis- and as a ballet fan, it completely ruins the experience!
The union certainly has its place in history, protecting its workers - I just wonder if certain demands have caused them to outprice themselves. I'm not referring to Broadway shows or other organizations with multi-million dollar operating budgets, but rather the small community organizations that I mentioned above. And the small time gigs do exists, as I played two last month.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-04-16 15:26
For a goodly number of years, I played at (and was one the contractor for) a musical theater in Illinois that was a community group. and they (being affiliated with the United Mine Workers) paid scale (which wasn't and isn't all that much, by the way). They priced their tickets accordingly, and everything went well (i.e., no money problems).
There are many who look at the price of a Broadway ticket and make the assumption that the producers are gouging the public. In reality, they are making a profit (and not always a comfortable one) but the majority of that exorbitant price goes for such expenses as musicians, stage hands (the major cause for the demise of decent overtures and entr'actes (you don't want to force the time of the show to go into stagehand overtime)).
The same applies even more-so to a symphonic concert. There, the vast majority of the ticket price goes for the personnel costs. Add up a hundred folks for three hours of performance, and the significant number of hours spent in rehearsal at their local negotiated scale, and you find that the money starts piling up quickly.
(The AFM newsletter International Musician had a nice piece on how much live music should cost, all set in the terms of arguments that you can use when defending the price of your work. In the two months since it appeared, I've used the arguments that it made three times in successfully defending the "high" price that I was asking a client.)
(Looking at it in a purely clinical fashion, this one column would have been enough reason alone to join the union, considering how much more work it enabled. Most of the newsletter is taken up with arcane negotiation stuff, particularly with the symphonic groups, but there is always something in there worth reading and digesting each month.)
Copyright issues prevent me from posting it here, but suffice it to say that all of the ancillary stuff that goes with making "professional" live music is often ignored by potential purchasers. It ended with an excellent comparison using a dentist's preparations, overhead, training and the like, with the defender offering to work for what the dentist gets for the same time period and preparation.
As I've said elsewhere hereon, "live music" has long ago priced itself out of the market. With alternatives that are "just as good" (and, yes, I know they're not, but I'm not the consumer here, boys and girls) available, and with musicians not unreasonably asking for a living wage, the forces of the marketplace are in play.
You know and I know that very, very few of us can turn out a performance that is "as good" as can be had in a professional recording, where they take time and multiple takes to "get it perfect". Given a good sound system, and people on stage who are alert (in the case of ballet and musical theater), it will produce a "good enough" product for 99% of the consuming market.
Perfect? No, not by a long shot due to coordination issues. In the theater, there's nothing worse than an actor who "goes up" in the midst of his or her prelude to a big, dramatic musical number. But, increasingly that's a gamble that more and more producers are willing to take.
And, as mentioned elsewhere, the union is interested in protecting the "professionals" who do music as a full time thing. Hence, the organization of major orchestras and the efforts of Local 802. As also mentioned above, in a right to work state (mostly in the South but including a few of the "empty" states in the mountains and northwest), you don't have to belong to work.
Having said that, I (and my lovely wife) both belong (in fact, I used to belong to two locals down here) and have done so since we started doing "professional" work down here. It doesn't cost that much, it adds to the ability of the union to "make things work", the Performance Fund is still around and has been pretty good to me when it was in good shape, I owe it to them for the recording rights issues that they zealously pursue, it has some insurance and retirement benefits if you have paid in for the years that you have belonged and it does offer a lot of professional contacts that otherwise I might not make in a relatively new city for us.
(They even have a credit union here in Houston. While this is a good thing, there was the little problem of the re-possession of an expensive motorcycle back in 2001 or so. They, wanting to keep it intact, parked it in the rehearsal hall, a room without appropriate garage type electrical wiring, and the thing leaked gasoline. (Those electrical sockets in a garage are up that high for a very good reason.) Still, it was one hell of a bike.)
Others don't see it that way, but they are more than happy to accept the above-union scale wages that I pay. Funny how that works.
Push comes to shove, people don't belong for the same motive that they accuse the "organizers" (the above mentioned "free" union band, who were doing nothing wrong by what they did) of pursuing. Only, in the non-members' case it's purely for the selfish greed of an individual, whereas in the union's case it's for the membership as a whole.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-04-18 18:08
The Thread/Posts concerning the Stage CO2 FOG overflowing into the "pit" and the fine explanatory commentary [there and here] by Terry S provide, IMHO, just another good reason for Union membership for "working" musicians, that of "working condition" analysis and regulation/correction. I'll reserve my thots [MC/GBK] re: CO2 and Global Warming. FWIW the atmospheric [Oak Ridge] CO2 concertration is now above 370 PPMV 0.037%, rising with the burning of carbon and the destroying of forests. {Too much said??}. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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