 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Clive
Date: 2007-04-13 09:35
Hi
I'm new to this board, and to the clarinet, but not to life ;-(
I recently bought a studemt instrument, and thought I'd have trouble with fingering, but not with blowing the thing, wrong! My default sound is the dreaded squeak, or as I would term it screech when hit with my not inconsiderable volume of air!
Carefully reading all the texts on embouchure, they say blah blah- put your top teeth on the mouthpiece, and then- blah blah. The problem is that I find it impossible to keep my teeth on the mouthpiece, and simultaneously blow. This made me aware that e.g when most people smile you see most or all of their top teeth, but in my case you just get a flash of my gnashers, and even in a guffaw you wouldn't see the set. My best guess is that I cannot be that anatomically different, and I wonder therefore if this is a recognised problem, and if there is a solution?
Do not misunderstand me, I can get the proper sound, but it is very hard work ( particularly for C), and tends to degrade to the squeak. If the answer is just to keep practising technique, I am happy to do that, but don't want to beat my brains out! I should add that I don't know the strength of the supplied reed; I also have some 3 strength, and these are even harder to blow. I have ordered some 1.5 strength in the hope that they might make things easier.
Tips appreciated.
Clive
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-04-13 09:50
Try using a thick mouthpiece patch.
Also, do you have a teacher at all to assist you ? or a friend who plays clarinet ?
A squeak could be from various problems - embouchure/ player, too soft a reed or not positioned properly .. the list goes on with the mpc, instrument out of whack, fingers covering the holes completely, etc.
So being new to playing the clarinet and not having any friends or comparisons has it drawbacks. It's hard to "see" the problem through words.
Can you slowly play a scale up and down with no issues ?
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-04-13 12:47
Clive,
Try working at the beginning of each practice session with just the mouthpiece and the barrel.
Eliminate the rest of the clarinet and simplify the problem.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-04-13 13:03
Start with a lower reed (pick up some 1.5s, some 2s, and maybe a few 2.5s). This way if the 1.5 is too soft, you have others ready. And if it's not, you'll have the others ready for when your embouchure starts to build up it's strength.
What mouthpiece you using? The one that came with the clarinet? If so, consider spending about 25 - 30 bucks on a good student mouthpiece. Clark Fobes Debut mouthpiece (he's a sponsor of the board and you can find his website under the 'mouthpieces & barrels' link to the right).
And don't worry about covering all the holes. Like said above, work on producing a clear open sound with no holes covered or just the mouthpiece and barrel. As for the mouthpiece slipping, a mouthpiece patch can definitely help with that. Whether thick or thin, it'll give the beak a little grip. If you want to try it without going out to find one, cut a small square of electrical tape and put that on the beak. It's an idea of how a mouthpiece patch would help.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2007-04-13 13:25
Clive - since you are "not new to life", my best advice is to be patient. Those of us who have a *rich* life experience can be too hard on ourselves when something that looks easy turns out to be not-so-easy. Listen to what the others have said here, especially the part about getting some live assistance from a good player, then take your time.
You'll get there.
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: Tony Beck
Date: 2007-04-13 13:47
You may want to have your instrument checked for leaks. This will cause your problem even if you are doing everything right. Don't assume that because you are not an experienced player, the problem is yours and not at least partly the clarinet. A leaky horn will be trouble no matter how experienced you are.
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2007-04-13 15:32
You may want to try double lip embouchre, which doesn't place teeth on mouthpiece, but uses the top lip similar to bottom lip, Some players use it all the time and some use it temporarily to correct embouchre problems.
Main drawbacks are less secure grip on mouthpirce and top lip can easily get sore.
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Author: Old Nick
Date: 2007-04-13 18:36
Back to basics
1) A beginner needs a relatively soft reed - don't use anything over a 2. As you develop, harder reeds become the norm. Me, I've been playing clarinet for nearly 50 years and I still only use 3's. Fit it to the mouthpiece so that when you hold the assembled reed/ligature/mouthpiece level with your eyes you see a regular black line of the mouthpiece behind the reed of maybe 1/2 a millimetre
2) Usually the mouthpiece on a student clarinet is, well...crap!! As suggested above, spend some money on a decent mouthpiece. A visit to a decent music store will help you pick
3) Embrouchure
On your own - no instrument, draw your lips over your teeth. Now bite down until it just becomes painful. Relax the pressure until you are just aware of your teeth holding your lips in place. Slacken slightly more and thats the pressure you need on your lips for the lower register. this is not a regular exercise, just one designed to give you a feel for the bite needed
Now try that with the mouthpiece. Lips over the teeth and lightpressure. Do not blow, so much as breath out and thats about the air pressure you need. The upper register, the higher you go needs a slightly tighter embrouchure but if you are a beginner, focus on getting your sound right from open G down to say, low G.
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Author: D
Date: 2007-04-13 18:42
Beg, borrow, steal, bribe, corrupt. What ever is necessary to get someone who has been playing a couple of years at least to play your clarinet and just double check there is nothing obviously wrong. It's so easy to blame your self at this stage.
Also, using any method you find appropriate, find a music shop that will allow you to try one of their clarinets, or try the definately working instrument of an associate.
If your associate can't play yours, and you can play something else, then you know the problem is not you.
If the problem is you, then as the others suggested play around with mouthpiece cushions and reed strengths.
If, as your comments seem to suggest, you have quite a bit of puff available, try this. Don't blow so hard!
When you blow really hard you can totally close up the reed and nothing will come out at all. As a fully grown person and not a 8 year old you probably have enough strength anyway to start at at least a 2 or 2.5 reed.
Be aware that different makes of reed mean different things by their strength markings. As a general rule a Vandoren traditional reed will be harder for any given number, than any other brand. This information is available easily on the internet by searching under 'clarinet reed strength comparison chart' or similar. There's one on this site too somewhere.
If you know what your mouthpiece is then it should be possible to find out from the manufactures website, what strength of reed are recommended to work best with it. If you don't know, then poke around a few websites such as Vandoren. They show measurements and you can gauge from this where yours falls in terms of open/closed short/long facing. This gives you an idea of which strengths and styles of reed are going to work on a mouthpiece with those dimensions. It might take a little while to gain enough strength and you have to start on a weaker reed, but at least you wont be totally barking up the wrong tree. (and that is embarrassing cos the cats laugh at you).
The other thing you might try, assuming that you have a working clarinet, is thinking about playing in a different way.
Instead of thinking about blowing, think about creating pressure.
Close your mouth and 'blow'. You magically turn into a puffer fish. Try this without letting your cheeks puff out. This sensation of pressure is what you should feel when trying to play.
Do it again with the instrument in your mouth and your tongue on the reed. No sound should come out. Your tongue is basically the finger over the end of a hose pipe. There should always be pressure, sound only happens when you move your tongue. Playing happens at all times when there is pressure, whether there is sound coming out or not. A 'rest' means no sound. Not no music.
You know when you hear bagpipes, how the piper has to pump the bag for a while before he makes a sound? That is the same as what you need to do. A bagpipe has enclosed reeds in there. He brings it up to pressure then he releases the sound. You need you bring your body up to playing pressure then release your tongue. To stop the sound replace your tongue. To breath....well ask me about that when I have figured it out.......
I think from what you describe that basically you are blowing like hell and closing up the reed which is why you get nothing back.
You may also have a fault in the mechanism which is why you should see if someone else can check it.
Also, you may be pressing a key slightly by accident which is creating a leak - if so your will probably do this on other instruments. Be really careful where you put your fingers. Banana keys and trill keys are very very easy to nudge when you move to a different note.
The most important thing....enjoy it!
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2007-04-13 22:03
This is all good advice - some of it even for experienced players!
It's great that you want to get this right - the embouchure is extremely important at ANY playing level. I'm a postgraduate performance major and embouchure is still a huge part of what I work on with my teacher(s).
EDIT because a diligent, upstanding member of the bboard emailed me to notify me of spelling mistakes. I'm ever so sorry, it will never happen again.
Post Edited (2007-04-14 05:28)
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Author: Clive
Date: 2007-04-13 23:21
Just a note to say thanks to all who replied here and privately, certainly a good place to be!
I have ordered some inexpensive mouthpiece patches from ebay, and expect to receive these in the next day or so; we'll see then how important they are. A decent mouhpiece would cost almost as much as my student clarinet - ca. GBP100 or about USD200-, so is probably not worthwhile at this stage.
The weaker 1.5 reeds are expected tomorrow, so ditto on that.
I've also been pointed towards double lip embouchure, and in early tests, this seems to suit the shape of my mouth/jaw much better. As I pointed out earlier, I find it physically impossible to rest my front teeth on the mouthpiece and blow simultaneously, so maybe I am just challenged in that department!
Now perhaps you may recoil in horror at the following, but this evening ( U.K. time), I achieved greatest success by using a sort of double lip embouchure, and in fact without even having my tongue on the reed at all! This is sort of how I imagine a trumpet being blown, but perhaps I'm wrong about that? It may well be that I am storing up trouble for myself in the future by doing this, but it is such a relief to be able to blow with confidence of not squeaking, at least in G ( open) to D. C is more of a challenge, and trying the A key is a recipe for trouble, but I'll deal with that later! In fact putting my tongue on the reed in this configuration is quite uncomfortable, transmitting the vibration of the reed directly onto the tongue.
The points about tuition and peer supervision are all well taken, but are not available to me in the short term, but which I shall try to investigate. The only peer support available to me is from an experienced recorder player, and my best guess is that this is not relevant to a reed instrument, but if anyone disagrees, please disabuse me of this p.o.v.
So thanks again everyone, and I shall report further progress ( or otherwise!)
Clive
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-04-14 10:01
200 US dollars will get far beyond "decent" mouthpiece. Like I said above, clark fobes debut is a decent mouthpiece for less than 1/4 of that price.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Clive
Date: 2007-04-14 10:27
Thanks Alexi.
I have now located a source of that specific mouthpiece in the U.K. for about GBP32 ( say USD60) delivered, so have gone ahead and ordered. Hey I seem to be getting in deep here ;-o
Clive
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-04-16 12:02
> quite uncomfortable, transmitting the vibration of the reed directly onto the tongue
Sounds about right if you haven't felt it before ;-D
*
One other thing to get right is the amount of mouthpiece in the mouth. An experienced player will be able to watch you and tell you more-or-less immediately if you've got it right. From here, all I can say is: try taking the smallest amount, and try taking as much as you can, and somewhere in between will be a 'sweet spot' where the notes are easiest.
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2007-04-16 15:34
Hmmm... tongue on the reed? Maybe that's part of the problem, causing the reed to stop playing.
Anyway, one of my students was an older gentleman who tried very hard to play his newly acquired clarinet and worked so hard that he had a death grip on the mouthpiece. He actually played much better with a stronger reed - he was strangling the softer one. His instrument played well and sealed properly - something I've always checked when there are persistent squeaking problems.
If you've figured some thing out and things are working well for you now, then great! Enjoy the ride!
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Author: Clive
Date: 2007-04-16 16:28
Thanks for the further comments people.
I have to say that it is still far too easy to squeak than I would like, and the concentration required to avoid this is intense.
I don't know if any UK members saw the TV prog. last evening of Robert Winstone on the sax, and the frustration of his teachers at his intensity and competitiveness causing him to be tense and squeak on the sax ( which I beleive is "harder" to do)? Well guess what, I recognised myself in that, being the typical type A psychological profile scientific type. I am a chemist as opposed to a medic but.....
I have no reason to believe that my instrument is in any way "leaky", but clearly it would be a good idea to get someone else to play it. Unfortunately I am not aquainted with anyone who could do so at present, but will look out for somebody. Yes, I know I should seek professional lessons, but I am really stubborn, and like to be self taught in almost everything I do. My previous success in this area has conditioned me, but of course it is a lot easier to learn when you are younger. I should say that I am not ancient, but just wanted to emphasise that I am not a teenager any more, although above the shoulders I probably still am!
Using weaker ( 1.5 strength) reeds has not improved things, so further to Brenda's comments above, perhaps I'll try the strength 3 reeds that I also have; well any port in a storm right ;-)
More later
Clive
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Author: D
Date: 2007-04-16 20:59
If the 1.5s are really totally useless to you, then try carefully cutting the very tip off one, following the curve that is already there. Use something very sharp to do this to get a good edge. It makes it act like a slightly harder reed. The 3s are probably going to be a bit too hard for the next couple of months. From what I have seen most long term plays tend to settle around the 2.5 to 3.5 mark with reeds, depending on their mouthpiece. This is after they have built up their muscles though.
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Author: old999
Date: 2007-04-16 23:17
I've been at it for almost a year and a half. I still get a squeak now and then. My teacher has been a big help, but it's not easy to figure out what's wrong on any given instance. I tend to bite too hard in the upper register and play with fingers too tense. Both can lead to troubles. Certain key sequnces tend to pull my fingers in the wrong direction, so I have to watch my hand/wrist positioning. It can also be the wrong embouchure or a bad reed or a poorly positioned reed, etc. I was originally sold a narrow Van Doren mouthpiece and later discovered that was not the best kind for beginners. I switched to something that was quite open - intended for jazz playing - and had much greater success. I've also have trouble with any reed harder than 2. The real key is persistence and regular practice. You have to build lip strength, and you do that through practise. Don't give up.
Al
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Author: D
Date: 2007-04-17 17:18
The more open jazz mouthpieces are designed to work best with lower numbered reeds like 2 and 2.5. You've probably got more lip strength than your think.
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Author: Clive
Date: 2007-04-17 18:09
Thanks D and Al.
No, I didn't mean that the 1.5 reeds are useless, just didn't make any real difference. My best guess is that the instrument was supplied with 1.5 strength anway! I'll persevere with them for the present, as I just can't blow the strength 3 reeds adequately.
Today I received my Clark Fobes ( Debut) mouthpiece, but that didn't help. I will put it aside until I am a little better and can take advantage of it. I also recieved a couple of mouthpiece patches, which I confess I thought were going to be thicker, and might have helped get my top teeth onto the reed. That was not the case and I thought therefore that they would be no use. However I believe that ( using double lip embouchure) that it definitely helps me avoid a squeak.
The bottom line seems to be that hardware tweaks and mods help little or not at all, and I am left to conclude- to which others have alluded- that I simply need to practise, practise, and then practise more to achieve lip strength and therefore adequate embouchure. It is, as someone else pointed out, that much harder as a "mature" person to accept that one can't succed as quickly as one would like. I always remember when learning to drive back in the 60s, that what seemed to be the easiest possible thing viz steering the car in a straight line was in fact the hardest of all, because I was concentrating so hard on declutching and changing gear. The analogue in clarinet playing for me, is the ( apparently) easy part of just blowing a random note has proved to be a stumbling block. I did learn to drive, and passed my test first time, so I'm sure that I will succeed at the clarinet if- as Joani Mitchell once sang-the big yellow taxi doesn't come for me first!
Thanks again
Clive
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Author: old999
Date: 2007-04-17 19:06
Clive,
Something else worth noting is that I found intially my practise sessions deteriorated rapidly after about a half hour. Everything would just seem to go to Hell. In time I increased my quality time to an hour. Now I'm practising an hour and a half at a time without any noticeable letdown.
Al
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2007-04-18 16:27
The tongue only touches the reed when you want to stop the reed from vibrating (between sounds not during sounds).
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