 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-03-15 10:53
Narrow bore clarinets have more resistance.
There are certain things large bore clarinets can do which narrow bore clarinets don't do so well - mostly in the altissimo register.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-03-15 14:29
Talk about big bores, look at Wolf's ContrForte.
It is a conical bore contrabassoon. It is an application of contemporary acoustic theory, and one feature is that it uses a huge bore in order to make the instrument louder. A conventional contra-bassoon is just a bit bigger in diameter than a standard bassoon (but 2x as long to get it down that extra octave). The Wolf ContraForte is scaled so that it is not just twice as long, but twice as big in diameter (4x the bore area0 of a standard bassoon.
The big air volume on the Wolf is stirred by a reed so big that it looks like a wiskbroom!
I heard one demonstrated at Bassoonarama, and it is just awesome, a huge improvement over a conventional contra --demonstrated by playing a duo with the conventional instrument. The thing is loud, in-tune and can still whisper the quietest --no air rush turbulence pppp.
Of course, the conical bore of the bassoon (or sax) can taper out of a smallish mouthpiece --or reed/bocal; while a clarinet has an awkward "start-up" --getting from the reed chamber to the bore; I'm wondering if our harmony clarinets couldn't benefit from Wolf's big-bore thinking.
The ContraForte, with its big bore is hugely louder than a contrabassoon.
Bob Phillips
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-03-15 17:22
Nelly interesting, Bob P, will look at it, the C - F that is, as I've only heard a C B [Firebird?] a few times in concerts. I dont know about the bore-dimensions of our contrabasses, in relation to my Selmer bass cl, but do appreciate it's better low-note volume-resonance compared to some other bass cls. Perhaps the bore increase is shown in the bass sax/bari sax comparisons?? Research needed ? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-03-16 08:43
Chris P,
What do you mean by things that a big bore can do in the altissimo?
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-03-16 10:43
I find the altissimo register on my Selmer Centered Tones plays so much easier (less resistant) and are more solid than small bore clarinets.
Even my teacher was envious at how easily the altissimo register spoke on mine compared to his Buffet RCs.
There are some other tuning aspects on large bore clarinets in the altissimo that certainly win over narrow bore clarinets, though as I don't have any narrow bore clarinets to hand I can't make the comparison, but I definitely find large bore clarinets much easier when played up the top.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cigleris
Date: 2007-03-16 12:22
I play the 1010 bore Peter Eaton clarinet after upgrading from a pair of 1010s. I coparison with 1010s and Eaton's instruments Peters win hands down. They are far more reliable in the sound and even throughtout the registers, the intonation is also a lot more reliable then the 1010. I can honestly say if never had an intonation problem in any orchestra or group that i've played in.
In comparing with French bore instruments i've found that the French bores have alot more brightness to the sound. I suppose you could say that they project more but then that depends on the player. As Chris has said the altissimo register is far easier on the wide bore than the French bore and plus you don't always need the Eb key down as you do for the french instruments as they are generally in tune up there. I also find that a wider bore clarinet can be more personal the the French bore, that's to say the wide bore takes on the personality of the player where as the French instruments tend to sound roughly the same. Again this is different with players.
This is an interesting topic as I personally and recently have had this conversation with a few players here in London. Some play the 1010 bore others the French bore. The French bore players are concerned that 1010 bore instruments are not in tune, 1010 players don't worry so much as they know how to handle this. Overall the same thing came through. If you're happy and comfortable with what you play then there is no issue. If someone doesn't like it then that's their opinion. All in all enjoy playing this wonderful instrument regardless of bore size.
Peter Cigleris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: larryb
Date: 2007-03-16 13:25
I find the altissimo plays more easily on my small bore Recital (A) than my larger bore Signature (Bb).
But I also recall hearing that A clarinets play more easily in the altissimo than Bb clarinets - is that true or a myth?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-03-16 14:02
Chris and Peter C,
Do you use mouthpieces made for wide bore clarinets or do you find that mouthpieces made for the smaller bore clarinets will still work well?
Thanks.
Alexi
(I apologize if this is going off-topic)
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-03-16 14:13
I've been using Vandoren mouthpieces with my Selmers, though I do like a close tip opening. I used to use an old Selmer table A mouthpiece that came with my first set of Centered Tones and a large bore Vandoren A1 crystal (that I still use with my Leblanc LL) - but B&H 1010s and Peter Eaton Elites are normally played using large bore mouthpieces.
To me, the Eaton mouthpiece with it's 1.26m tip opening appears (in writing) to be cavernous in comparison to my Vandoren M15, 5RV Lyre or A1, though with the right reed it's probably easy enough to play on.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-03-16 14:15
Interesting thoughts on the effect of bore on the altissimo.
As I understand the Wolf ContraForte, the big bore just pushes more air around and enables louder noise-making.
I've been working hard on integrating the alti into my playing over the last year or so, and find that the resistance change (Buffet RC --non prestige) induced by the use of the Eb key makes a HUGE change in the response of the instrument. I HAVE to get that key down, or the notes just won't speak --particularly in soft, legato passages.
I've been trying to find the ultimate enabling mouthpiece and MUST balance my reeds to gain facility in the alti.
As far as intonation goes up there, the C# is C## with the Eb key down, every conventional (JR-HI) fingering above is out of tune without it --marginal with it; and I'm learning to use a whole flock of "Buffet-orchestral) alternative fingerings to enable quick play with acceptable intonation.
It sounds like I need to become promiscious in my playing of other horns --but this Buffet is so much easier to play in tune than my old one.
Bob Phillips
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-03-16 14:19
I think that the effect of bore differences on response and intonation is a bit overstated. My two favorite clarinets currently, both of which feel and sound very similar to me, are somewhat opposite designs: one is a 1920s-30s vintage Kohlert (Graslitz) with a 'small' bore, and the other is a 1960s vintage Boosey & Hawkes Series 2-20 with a medium-large bore. I have modified both clarinets with a bit of tonehole undercutting and radiussing, and have set the pad heights somewhat higher than most, so that with a good choice of mouthpieces they both play quite freely and in tune. I think that impedance-matching of the entire clarinet 'system' (instrument, barrel, mouthpiece, reed, and player) is the key to low resistance, rather than just the single factor of instrument bore diameter. But what do I know.....
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-03-16 18:56
David S actually knows A LOT.
Where does one start (short of asking you to do it) impedance matching?
Bob Phillips
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cigleris
Date: 2007-03-17 12:06
I play on a Hite mouthpiece which i've had for about five years now. It's bored out for 1010. I do have 2 Eaton mouthpieces which he let me have free when i bought the clarinets. I played them both in the RCM concert hall and they sound soooo different compared to his living room. Needless to say I have never used them.
Peter Cigleris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-03-17 12:17
I've done a bit of trying to match the "best" mp to my Sel C T [15.0 mm bore] and found that an older Kell [G B, I presume] mp works fine. Also for my Leblanc L7, [14.8+ mm bore] a B G [in a circle] mp with Benny Goodman in script is my "preferred" for it. I also like jazz. AM thots, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-03-17 12:33
"I do have 2 Eaton mouthpieces which he let me have free when i bought the clarinets."
That might be a little misleading for those interested in buying an Eaton clarinet. You don't buy a clarinet and get a free mouthpiece, but actually the price of the clarinet includes a mouthpiece which comes with it. I don't know if it is possible to buy a clarinet without the mouthpiece for less.
I play an Eaton mouthpiece and like it.
Post Edited (2007-03-18 12:09)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bob49t
Date: 2007-03-18 10:40
OK Peter, I play PE Elites and his mouthpieces. I think his m/p's are great so if you don't use the m/p's, feel free to throw them northwards! You could email me with the m/p details (markings and see if they're close to mine.
Bob T
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cigleris
Date: 2007-03-20 08:50
Bob49t
email me of topic and i'll send you the details.
Peter Cigleris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
