 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-02-05 16:24
I just recently how I've really undervalued this Bb. Recently, I've been playing certain pieces and the one and one has just all of sudden in mind been VERY evident and useful. I never realized it until literally a few weeks ago, but it's very funny how for SOME reason, it's been popping out in my head. Anytime going from clarion F, E, or D and going up to a Bb, I've been using the one and one fingering.
Just an observation. I don't know why I never used it before!!!
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-02-05 16:27
Hey Alexi,
Now you know how I felt when I discovered that newfangled 'register key' thingie! Didn't have to overblow so much to get all those smokin' upper registers.......
![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2007-02-05 16:38
The 1 and 1 Bb fingering should be considered only when 2 factors make it applicable:
1. where you are coming from
and
2. where you are going next
If both criteria are not met, the standard Bb fingering is best considered.
Of course, if your 1 and 1 Bb has any tuning/response issues or technical/mechanical problems, it is best to bypass its use.
Or buy a different clarinet ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) ...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-02-05 16:55
Also remember that T 1 0 0 |0 2 0 can be very useful when there is a B/F# preceded or followed by an D#/A# (implied for enharmonics as well).
Post Edited (2007-02-05 16:56)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-02-05 17:00
Quote:
Of course, if your 1 and 1 Bb has any tuning/response issues or technical/mechanical problems, it is best to bypass its use.
Or buy a different clarinet ...GBK With the amount of flak I get for buying another MOUTHPIECE, I think another clarinet is out of the question.
But yes, I've noticed pieces of music making the 1 and 1 an obvious choice from where it's coming from, and a not so bad choice considering where it's going to. I just wonder why I never noticed this before.
Alexi
(Too bad to hear about that Dave. But I'm glad you found out about it!).
But I'm still wondering about the usefullness of the sliver key Bb/Eb. Just like I did a few years ago. I've only used it TWICE that I can remember due to clogging in my standard Bb fingering.
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-02-05 17:03
And Hank, I've found that one EXTREMELY useful for some runs in a piece I'm working on in the moment. Going from altissimo C#, to A# to F# and further. WHAT a lifesaver!
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-02-05 17:13
Alexi,
If you ever have some lessons from a former Bonade student or one of their students (like me), you'll use the sliver key a lot. Some traditions die rather hard.
HRL
PS I have been known to use 1 and 3 without even realizing it (a carry over from flute IMHO).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-05 18:23
"If you ever have some lessons from a former Bonade student or one of their students (like me), you'll use the sliver key a lot."
Which one - the RH B/F# one or the top joint Eb/Bb one?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-02-05 20:47
But, don't ever suggest it to a sax player. I use it on sax as I find appropriate, but they would rather die a thousand deaths than play one long Bb. While it's not as good of a alternative as is the two fingers and the side key, it's not that bad...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-02-05 21:02
Terry,
I am a sax player and use it all the time when appropriate. Intonation is one thing but intonation versus velocity another. But then, the BIS key should be on all clarinet IMHO. After playing so many, many years a lot of these things are so ingrained that I do not even think about them.
Chris P., the upper sliver key for Eb/Bb is the one to which I refer. My teacher, Fred Cohen - a Bonade student, insisted that it be learned. But then so was the first page of Rose a month long study in slow playing.
HRL
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-05 22:04
I find that key too awkward to use, and as I've got several other ways of playing Eb/Bb (xox|ooo, xoo|xoo, xoo|oxo, xxo|Eb/Bb ooo, etc.) the only purpose this key serves is to keep the top joint rings from opening too far so the link doesn't smack against the body (even though I hold the top joint rings closed during assembly), and I've plugged up the tonehole as well.
On Artie Shaw's 'Gramercy 5' Buffet, this key has been removed completely. If I was to have a set of clarinets built to my own specification (or if I was to build my own) I'd omit this key. But it can be fitted easily if I was to sell them on. But that's never going to happen.
Yet.
On saxes my main Bb fingering is with the bis key, and on flute it's with the thumb on the Bb lever, though I do use the long Bb on both as and where I feel the need, same with the side Bb on saxes.
On oboe/cor I have a choice - the conservatoire Bb (xxo|xoo) which has a nice resonance to it, or the thumbplate Bb (xxo|ooo thumb off thumblate) which is brighter in tone and slightly sharp as my oboe is tuned for conservatoire fingerings.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Grant
Date: 2007-02-06 00:47
I have been using the left hand sliver key lately just for agility practice and besides that I did pay for it. Intonation on my horn seems pretty good and in a few cases it feels as comfortable as any other fingering.
Peace on Earth and May You always have a reed that PLAYS.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-02-06 02:04
The infamous sliver key format on the soprano clarinet is one that was not designed for me. I can use it on the Bb and A but prefer the fork Eb (seventh ring, fingered T XOX OOO) instead. I have to have them trimmed up and carefully located to avoid this problem.
And, I positively can not play the Eb horn with one installed on the upper joint, as my fingers (ham hands) do not have enough clearance to cover the hole well without brushing the sliver. I too use the wax in the tone hole trick, which goes back at least to Ivan Mueller, and all is well. You don't have to pull the key, just stop up the tone hole.
The infamous bis key on the saxophone is also (for the most part) out of my reach. If I try to use it on an alto, I usually overlap enough to rub against the next pad down. On the baritone, I can make it work, but generally prefer 1 and 1 or the side fingering instead. If you don't use something that much, you tend to forget about it. Whatever works....
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-02-06 02:15
My old teacher insisted that I use the Bb sliver key in chromatic passages. lately, its been sitting there unused --except as an emergency spit bypass.
My current teacher tells me that he spent months studying the most fluent ways to go from every note to every other note on the clarinet. He frequently recommends the 1&1 for the cases mentioned previously in this thread.
No, in my less enlightened years, I used to use the 1-1 fingering for bottom line Eb. Funny, I just noticed a couple of months ago that it is terribly out of tune, so I've been learning to get to the bottom trill key quicker, and have nearly phased out the 1-1 Eb.
I've been curious as to WHY the 1-1Eb is out of tune and the 1-1Bb is not. No answer --except, maybe, the University of New South Wales in Oz: they think it may have to do with the fact that high frequency vibrations are less distrubed by the intervening open tone holes.
Did not early clarinets have to use the 1-1 fingerings for a simple lack of keys? Seems to me that when we use them, we're in touch with our heritage.
Bob Phillips
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: joeyscl
Date: 2007-02-06 06:00
Just like how i figured out that u can Leave the pretty much all fingers down when going from B or C(and those other notes) to the A and B-flat across the break... I was ASTONISHED
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-02-06 07:05
In the examples that Alexi gave in his first post, going up to Bb from D, E or F, it is easier for me to go to the regular Bb. Sometimes I'll use the 1/1 Bb fingering, for example a F/Bb tremolo, or F#/A# tremolo (the Bb with left hand 1st and right hand 2nd fingers sounds just as good or better than the 1/1 Bb). In the phrase Alexi wrote "altissimo C#, to A# to F#" still the regular Bb is just as easy or maybe even easier and most likely that is what I would use.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D Dow
Date: 2007-02-06 11:33
IN a VERY FAST passage this fingering can be very useful...sometimes much of the music clarinet players perform is so quick tuning is not such an issue..however, the 1 and 1 Bb on held notes may be very hard to tune depending on the set up of the clarinet.
David Dow
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-02-06 11:50
D. Dow has stated it very clearly and succinctly.
WTF, the right hand on is a terrific thing to do and I use it all the time. However, you can not use that technique on a Mazzeo clarinet. I asked him about that one time at Mid-west and never got a very good answer.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-06 12:25
The long Bb (xoo|xoo) has only come into use since the Klose-Buffet 'Boehm' system was developed taking this idea from the flute system Boehm designed. Before that on non-Boehm and simple systems harking right back to the early days of 5-key clarinets the only Eb/Bb fingering was a forked note (xox|ooo) which is great in the upper register (and still the better sounding Bb on German and Oehler systems) though needs some RH fingers for the lower register Eb to flatten it, though it is stuffy in quality.
The cross Eb/Bb key is one that has remained on clarinets since it's addition much later when clarinets were fitted with more keys to give a clearer and better tuned notes, as well as a better and clearer Eb/Bb, though I think the only reason why it's fitted on Boehm systems is that it's useful for those that have changed from simple system to Boehm system as they may have only had that key for Bb/Eb before, and the transition to a new system isn't too alien for them, though they now have several more ways of playing Eb or Bb.
Most 13-key simple systems didn't have a side Bb key, only the cross key, The ones fitted with the Barret side key still had the cross Eb/Bb key too, even though they had the single touch for Eb/Bb and F/C depending on which LH fingers were held down (in the same manner as a simple or thumblate system oboe - the side key is for both Bb and C with the rings determining which vent is open or closed).
So I believe the 'sliver' Eb/Bb key is a throwback to earlier systems as the Boehm system is a complete departure from the non-Boehm systems bar this one factor, and it's only clarinets that have this key for LH3.
Oboes have a trill key here instead (for B-C# and C-Db, or C-D on very basic thumbplate systems), flutes and saxes have nothing there at all, though French bassoons have an Eb key there as an alternative to the forked fingering, and German systems can have an Eb key fitted there as an option.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-06 12:44
On a Mazzeo system, putting any fingers down will cause the throat Bb vent (which is the lower of the two trill keys) to open when the thumb is off the thumb ring (or plate), so it makes going from throat G to B across the break a pain as you can't prepare the leap as you can on other systems by keeping your RH fingers down, or use resonance fingerings for the open G.
So you can play A with any RH fingers down only, and Bb by opening the A key with any RH fingers down. So going from A or Bb to the upper register is simpler, but intervals from G to B,C,D etc. have to be taken with care so you don't get a throat A sounding instead of the G.
I use the lower of the trill keys for a throat G-A trill as it's easier than using the A key.
I wouldn't mind a full Mazzeo system Selmer (CT or Series 9) - they have an articulated C# key so B-C# can be done by holding the F#/C# key down while trilling with the E/B key - so that puts them on par with German/Oehler systems with the 'Patent C#'. That, and the LH low Eb key, and the fact I like the shape of the bell - a straight cone with no bell ring!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-02-06 12:45)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-02-06 15:45
Chirs P.
Thanks for the history lesson.
I gave up my full Boehm horn and truly miss
xoxC#|000
for fingering Eb
Bob Phillips
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-02-06 16:17
As mentioned above, the long Eb was enabled by the Klose reforms to the old clarinet that gave us the Boehm system. One of those advantages that the open rings enabled in a big way.
I grew up (for the first three years or so) with an Albert horn, and the long Eb was not an option there. So, I had to learn to use it once in high school (and learn I did).
The combination of the articulated G# and the long Eb with the fork Eb mechanism is what makes playing arpeggi such a joy on the full Boehm instrument. Pity that most of you will never experience that...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-06 22:16
Bob,
A forked Eb mechanism can be fitted to nearly any clarinet with 17/6 configutarion, though it does mean some surgery involving fitting a tonehole chimney for LH3 and a vent hole between LH2 and LH3, a ring and arm for RH3, a short stud pillar to carry an extra spring for LH2 ring, a bridge mechanism, linkage and adjusting screw, and all this is mounted between the existing pillars on a pinned steel to connect the new ring for LH3 to the E vent pad.
I tried it out on my plastic Yamaha to see if it works, and it works much better than I expected. I nearly fitted it to my B&H 1010, but someone bought it off me just before I was about to start chopping it up.
So anything is possible.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
