 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: chadilia
Date: 2007-01-20 15:37
I've been searching for a good vintage Buffet (R13 or equivalent) clarinet for a while and will probably be buying it online due to the much cheaper prices (of course, with the downside that I can't try it out first!).
I would like to purchase a clarinet manufactured during the so-called "golden era" (i.e. when the wood used was higher quality etc.) which I know is definitely BEFORE the 1980s... but does anyone know the EXACT dates for this supposed era? Is there really a cut-off date when the quality of wood took a plunge?
(Also, anyone have any success/horror stories with buying a clarinet off ebay?!)
Thanks a lot for any advice!
chadilia
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Author: Kevin
Date: 2007-01-20 15:48
Generally, the clarinets of the mid 60's and a few years prior are considered some of Buffet's so-called "golden era". Perhaps someone else can enlighten us on the nature of the serial numbers associated with them.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-01-20 15:58
The "Golden Era" as some call it are the Buffet clarinets from about the mid 1960's to the mid 1970's.
Serial numbers - approximately (+/-) 80,000 to 165,000.
Of course, excellent clarinets can be found above and below those numbers.
Many think that we are now in another "Golden Age" of Buffet clarinets.
For me - I have yet to be convinced.
...GBK (whose owns a number of vintage Buffets clarinets, primary performing set being Bb - 96xxx and A - 86xxx )
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-01-20 18:47
GBK's reticence is showing . . . he actually has heaps and gobs of R13's. He is a Buffet collector who is actively working toward owning the full set of serial numbers! Eu
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2007-01-20 20:37
Yeah...he's never even seen my 111xxx...lol! And he'll never get it either!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-20 20:51
I wonder if he needs a 717xx Eb clarinet to fill a gap in his collection?
Not that I'm parting with it or nuffin'!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-01-20 21:39
. . . and a road map to 3 more "acquisitions" has been drawn. He! He!
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-01-20 22:52
Hello All...
Becuase I was curious about the same topic, I just bought a rebuilt 97xxx (1967) Bb R13...and it's absolutely wonderfull. I will ultimately have to have some keywork changes made, and the original thumbrest is even lower than my 515xxx but the sound and the pitch are much better in comparison.
After the work is done this will definitely be my primary horn.
And not to dispute GBK...but I had heard the Golden period was broader: from '60-73. I have not experienced these instruments...just relating hearsay.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Bill
Date: 2007-01-20 23:28
I have 93406 (in Bb) and 95826 (in A). They are wonderful. Yes, they would probably be my desert island horns (this from a Selmer Paris freak).
Bill.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: susieray
Date: 2007-01-21 00:41
My two R13 Bb's are both earlier; 1956 and 1961....and they are
both VERY nice horns. Now I just need to find a good R13A from the same
time period.
Sue
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Author: carrielj
Date: 2007-01-21 00:41
My 51XXX is awesome! I'm putting it in my will to one of my children. I'm a leblanc fan, but won't part with this one.
Carrie
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2007-01-21 01:49
I have a 54XXX that is incredible in every way.
jmsa
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Author: mk
Date: 2007-01-21 02:12
tough problem is finding a clarinet from 70's not blown out.....look for baby boomers who have dust balls on them.....120, 130, 140,
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-01-21 03:16
the 'golden age' was between April 27th, 1964 and June 11th 1964. a period during which the best 6 clarinets of all time were made.
we don't know their exact serial numbes, unfortunately.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2007-01-21 03:54
Chadilia,
I'm just curious, why is it you're looking for a vintage Buffet?
Jim
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Author: brucedobbs
Date: 2007-01-21 04:47
Attachment: DSCF0054.JPG (297k)
Maybe you could tell me what I have. I'm not familiar with Buffet but I have an older wood Buffet serial 58XXX with articualted C#/G# key. I need to have the chimey repaired on the Bb/F key. How do I tell if this is an R13
Dobbs Band Instrument Repair
662.253.5090
brucedobbs@gmail.com
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Author: chadilia
Date: 2007-01-21 14:02
Jim - because I can't afford a new one ($2500+) and as long as I'm getting a used one, I might as well get one of the best, eh?
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-01-21 15:11
if you are interested in upgrading, then IMO getting a more recient used clarinet would be better. there is less to go wrong with the mechanism the closer you get to new.
I have found that the Buffets from the mid '80s are also really good.
-S
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-01-21 16:38
chadilia,
Just wanted to comment on your thoughts on not being able to try out an instrument that you buy online. Many online sellers (even on the unmentionable auction site) will allow you a trial period. I would recommend using one of those sellers and avoiding who does not allow a return.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-01-21 18:48
Hello,
I have heard the talk of instruments being "blown out" without a concrete definition of what this means.
Every repair tech that I've met and worked with believes "blowing out" to be something that can be fixed in a major overhaul.
Any thoughts?
James
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Author: Kalakos
Date: 2007-01-21 19:37
<<Gnothi Seauton>>
Love your saying by the way!!!!
Someone told me a blown out clarinet was one whose wood had warped so that the cylinder was no longer cylindrical but oval in shape. This happens with age and moisture taking their toll on the wood supposedly. The inside of the clarinet was then supposedly not the correct shape for proper tone or intonation.
I don't know if any of that is true, or if clarinets do in fact get "blown out." I play antique Buffet simple system instruments only (1887 to about 1923), and none of them seem to be "blown out."
Interesting thread, though.
Best,
Kalakos
Kalakos Music
http://www.TAdelphia.com
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Author: Mark Charette ★2017
Date: 2007-01-21 20:06
Rather than start a separate "blown out" thread here, please review all the other threads on blow-out via the search command. It just came up recently and is a common, recurring thread. It is too far distant from this thread to allow this thread to be "hijacked".
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Author: clariman
Date: 2016-09-27 10:30
Hi
Can anyone tell me if the 'golden era' R13's had silver plate or nickel plate ? I am interested in a 1968 model
Or were the models produced in both ?
Many thanks
Bob
ghigi@btinternet.com
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2016-09-27 11:27
Standard key plating started about 1970 so earlier clarinets were generally unplated German nickel silver from the factory.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2016-09-27 17:36
They don't do it for me. Some are completely blown out - no center to the sound, and some have keywork that is so soft/mushy that they will never hold regulation.
Most all of the good ones would be held until the player dies or can't play anymore.
Not what shows up on an Auction for dealer profit, bouncing from one owner to the next.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Ed
Date: 2016-09-27 18:26
Wow, talk about a zombie thread!
I know people who swear by these older instruments. I have tried a number from the earlier eras that are really terrific. All that I have seen/played were the german silver, unplated as mentioned above.
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Author: ClarinettyBetty
Date: 2016-09-28 06:10
I traded all my newer horns for Golden Eras. The ones I have tried from the 60s were the best. Most of the late 50's didn't do it for me, same for the late 70s. To each his own! I've also played Toscas, Divines, RCs, etc...I still prefer the older horns.
I have friends and colleagues who sell instruments as a side business, so it's nice to get to try out instruments all at the same time!
As far as auction sites, try to buy a horn that lets you have a trial period. You really, really need this.
Happy hunting!
-----------------------
Eb: 1972 Buffet BC20
Bb: Selmer Paris Presence
A: Selmer Paris Presence
Bass: 1977 LeBlanc
https://gentrywoodwinds.com
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-09-28 06:18
If you can find some good 1960's horns that weren't played on much and have that sweet sound - buy it. They are that good.
The Yamaha CSG, German bore clarinets are close to what the old 60's Buffets were like. In some cases better, because the notes are so even.
You can even dig deeper if you want. Not many people are aware of this. Bob Marcellus used a 1928 straight bore Buffet clarinet for most of his years with Cleveland. It was of course worked on many times.
Harold Wright loved the 1960's horns and bought new ones or even barely used ones in mint condition every 5 years. He felt that the bore changed so he'd switch. Not everyone felt that way. Iggie Gennusa kept his horns, mid 1960's pretty much all of his life.
What changed, well we know that the bore design changed in the 1970's. But also the aging of the wood and the location of the wood. For example cane grows everywhere in the world, but the very best cane comes only from the Var region of France. Same with the clarinet wood. Guy Chadash was telling me about this. Some people love his horns because of the sound quality and he gets the wood from the same areas that Buffet once did. But the Buffet wood comes from a totally different location now.
Lastly the wood is not treated as long anymore. Aged is a better word. Same as cane, the longer it's aged the better it will play, to a point.
This of course is opinion. But using testing tools such as testing hardness of wood and looking at fiber and cell structure it often leads to pretty strong opinions.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: TomS
Date: 2016-09-29 07:18
I am not the biggest Buffet fan, in respect to some playing qualities, but very respectful of their long tradition and commitment to quality.
I think you could make a strong case that the Golden Era is now.
!
They are having to deal with the quality of wood, nowadays, but I hope we are mending our mistakes, assuring a good supply of quality Blackwood for the future.
Buffet has a number of interesting and exciting new products. I'd like to test drive the Tradition clarinet.
I am a RCP fan and Yamaha is in close 2nd place ... but at my age, you like to experiment and experience new stuff, before it is too late ... more spare time and a little extra dough facilitate a "bucket list" of clarinet fun.
So I say, best of luck to Buffet ... I can't say a new clarinet won't be in my future!
Tom
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Author: AndyW
Date: 2016-09-29 18:40
I do know that a manufacturer's "golden era" co-incides *exactly* with the date of any instrument I'm selling at that particular moment.....
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Author: donald
Date: 2016-09-29 22:44
I know someone who claims their 1880 Buffet E flat clarinet plays with better intonation than their 1990s one, I'm looking forward to testing that theory.
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Author: gcohill
Date: 2020-10-13 21:44
In 1965 I was in the market for a Buffet R13. Every instrument I tried out was nickel plated. I never saw one that was not plated. Now, that being said, I have seen unplated Buffets but they were older. How old, I can't say because I never researched it. I wound up buying a 1964 vintage, serial number 75402 with nickel plated keys. 5 years ago I had the keys stripped of theb mnickel and had them silverplated. The best thing I could have done because it made that horn just sing. And it is not so called "blown out" either. My response is of course years later but thought Id post it anyway so others can read it.
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Author: donald
Date: 2020-10-14 00:44
Since I wrote the above post I was given an R13 from 1963 that plays much better than any of the new ones I've tried. Nickel plating, keys ridiculously worn out (needs new ring keys on both joints just to start with). Tuning fine except left hand 12ths SLIGHTLY worse than a modern horn. No sign of being "blown out" despite being played for 4 hours a day from 1963 to 2015 by the previous owner!
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-10-14 20:09
To discover when Buffet had a golden era, I suppose we have to specify the model. They had a golden era when the Klose-Buffet Boehm instrument was accepted as standard and began to displace the Albert system in the late 1800s and early 1900s. They had another golden era when the R13 displaced the Selmer clarinets in American orchestras, and another golden era when the RC models did the same in Europe. The golden era for the R13 was probably the 60s and early 70s. Buffet had still another golden era with the Festival model, as the R13 began to fade. More recently they have had a golden era with the more expensive Tosca, which can be found in orchestras throughout the world. No doubt, as these models also fade, Buffet will find ways to make still newer golden eras for itself. For Buffet, "golden era" is a plural, not a singular, phenomenon.
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Author: LFabian
Date: 2020-10-15 08:04
I have one of those Golden Age clarinets. if I wanted to upgrade the tuning barrel, A Moennig or the Icon barrel? or the Paulus and Schuler?
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