 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Fontalvo
Date: 2007-01-15 16:07
Are there any equipment that use laser to measure the different dimensions of the reed??? If there isn't, I wanted to invent something kind of like the machine by Ben Armato, which would use laser technology to measure the dimensions of a reed. What do you all think?????????
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-01-15 16:13
...and when you know the dimensions of the reed, what next? You might have a solution, but no suitable problem for it.
I mean, you can have two reeds of absolute identical dimensions, but one plays while the other doesn't. Just because their fibers aren't identical...
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Ben
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Author: Fontalvo
Date: 2007-01-15 16:16
The reed will NEVER BE PERFECT. However, we can achieve a LITTLE more consistency???? Which I think is what we hope for???
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-01-15 16:16
one question- why? is a micrometer not enough?
a word of advice if you plan to ever make anything original. learn from Adolph Sax; don't tell anyone about it until you have legal protection.
-S
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-01-15 16:29
> However, we can achieve a LITTLE more consistency????
I think that the static dimensional consistency is already achieved. I'd go for a device that measures the dynamics: The Reed In Motion Evaluator (RIME) or so...an old mouthpiece, the air outlet of a vacuum cleaner, a high-speed camera plus some software...
> Which I think is what we hope for???
No. personally I'd prefer a bit more consistency between the reed and the chair. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
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Ben
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-01-18 15:15
Sounds like a money making idea and a device for the person who has everything.
Bob Draznik
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-01-18 16:32
(Disclaimer - I sell Xilema reeds)
On a recent tour of the Xilema reed factory in Valencia, Espanola I saw the latest version of the UHL Technik (BB Sponsor with descriptions of the machines) reed making machine and the Reed Maker Software. Exact dimensions for multiple points on the reed model for all the parameters of the reed are programmed into the machine, and with 0.01mm accuracy are translated from a cane quarter section into the finished reed. There is a visual inspection of the reed after tip cutting and the "strength" is measured by tip displacement in fentoNewtons (a measure of force) by the UHL SGS82S measurement device. There are quality control points where measurements are taken from random samples and finished reed samples are measured multiple times to insure proper measurements in the finished reed.
I like Ben's idea of a RIME device which would actually measure each reeds vibrational quality. This would of course necessitate a new measurement unit - the VIBE (Vibrational Intensity Basis Estimation) which we all would have to translate in our own playing setup. Actually I have put forward a prototype unit idea(somewhere in the dusty archives on the BB) which uses a piezoelectric vibration pulse and optical vibration measurement smart algorithms to quantitate VIBE units for the tip motion of each reed. So far there has been no interest from the reed makers in the RIME (sorry for stealing the name) approach, the VIBE unit, or changing most anything that they have been doing for the last 50 years - oh, well !!
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-01-18 16:42
Doc:
I guess you gotta make 'em yourself - actually have 'em manufactured (prob. offshore so they can be affordable) - then peddle 'em through your store.
Eu
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-01-18 16:47
". . . the air outlet of a vacuum cleaner . . ."
Or, the vacuum inlet hose, sucking air through the mouthpiece/reed setup from the bottom, leaving the reed more out in the open for observation and measurements. Eu
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Author: Fontalvo
Date: 2007-01-18 17:07
For L.Omar Henderson,
Could you e-mail me the information about this product????? click on my name to get the e-mail. Thanks
Rafael
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-01-18 18:33
EuGeneSee wrote:
>> ". . . the air outlet of a vacuum cleaner . . ."
> Or, the vacuum inlet hose, sucking air through the mouthpiece/reed setup
> from the bottom, leaving the reed more out in the open for observation and
> measurements. Eu
Hmm. And use a laser that "draws" a grid on the reed, and measure the characeristics with a RLGD (Reed Laser Grid Distortion) unit.
<off to USPTO>
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Ben
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2007-01-18 19:18
This all reminds me of the "Reedometer" from Macaferri. It measured the flex of a reed at ONE point on the reed. I guess this gives some information. I would suggest a Reedometer that measures flex at many points on the reed. The second part of the equation would have to be measuring how this reed functions on your mouthpiece(not in the Reedometer). Very simplistically(which I'm good at) every number on the facing curve of the mouthpiece would indicate how much the reed has to flex at that point....measure the required force to flex the reed that distance ..if the reed is inherently stiffer it would take more force.... So what we need here is a machine that adjusts the reed while it is on your mouthpiece. It could be that forces have to be measured in a certain order.....once you apply force to 17mm back from the tip ..now closing the tip off is easier than without any force applied at 17mm. etc. So there you have it....take cane off until all the numbers work....unfortunately when you adjust one thing it isn't independent. Nevertheless , there is no question that my new machine will be the answer to this reed problem. It is simple. This is why I am not a scientist.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-01-18 20:38
It's been alluded to already, but given the variability and randomness of cane (with respect to density, fiber patterns and orientations, etc.) the exterior dimensions of the cut alone don't really tell us much. Adding some measurement of the bending stiffness of the overall reed helps a bit too, but this tells us nothing about the damping characteristics of the reed (vital information) nor of the distribution of the stiffness (stiffness gradient, if you will). As Ben and Doc Omar have said, a device which directly measures vibrational characteristics would be the ticket. Even there, the 'free' vibration of a reed in air is going to be much different than the variably-damped vibration of a reed in the player's mouth, so we must include the player's embouchure in the test equipment setup. Machines which emulate this have already been designed and tested (I forget where I read about them).
Personally, I'm not about to donate my lips to science. ![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif)
Post Edited (2007-01-18 20:49)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-01-18 23:12
Arnold and Dave - you bring up good valid points but the variables of multiple mouthpieces - curvatures, lays, rail widths, tip openings, embouchures, etc. could never be standardized and would yield a zillion types of reed grades if accommodated. A quantum leap of measuring vibrational characteristics IMHO would be sufficient to give players a better handle on buying the right reed or at least a better reed for their setup. Right now the ambiguity favors the reed manufacturers and facilitates selling more reeds - so my explanation for a lack of interest in more functional reed grading?
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-01-18 23:45
I tell you, it's a conspiracy: the reed makers purposely limit the lifespan of That One Good Reed in your box - just like the light bulb manufacturers. (and Mr. Murphy works for either as a consultant, really)
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Ben
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