 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2007-01-13 16:18
Just viewed the (circa 1990) Youtube video of Karl Leister playing the Weber quintet.
He's playing with the mouthpiece at a side angle of maybe 25? degrees...odd to see. When it goes up to the highest altissimo he whips up his clarinet to a trumpet fanfare position.
Once again I'm impressed with the dankness and inflexibility of the German clarinet tone...give me Ricky Morales or Emma Johnson any time!
Clarinet Redux
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-01-13 16:34
> He's playing with the mouthpiece at a side angle of maybe 25?
> degrees...odd to see.
Maybe he has an asymmetrical jaw or teeth, maybe he uses side-tonguing. Emma Johnson has a skewbouchure too, I believe. Doesn't seem to hamper their articulation.
I am not sure whether a youtube flick is proof for "dankness and inflexibility" of a certain clarinet system. We have four variables in this equation: instrument, player, recording equipment and piece. Not to forget the personal style or the way an artist thinks a piece should be interpreted.
--
Ben
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2007-01-13 16:52
There's certainly nothing wrong with playing with the mouthpiece at it's best position for you.
In the video of Emma as a teenager the mouthpiece was askew, but in more recent videos not so.
Youtlube is hardly a fair sample of anything...but I have a number of his CDs and the dank sound is there (at least to me).
Many people love the German clarinet sound...I suppose it's idle to quibble about matters of personal taste.
Just a few trivial observations on a lazy saturday afternoon waiting for the football playoffs to start!
Clarinet Redux
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-01-13 19:51
I wouldn't equate "German Clarinet" == "Dank Sound" just because some artists (coming of some school) might sound like that. But maybe this unique combination results in a dank sound, okay. (I'm sure it's the cork grease)
--
Ben
Post Edited (2007-01-13 19:52)
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Author: Bubalooy
Date: 2007-01-13 20:37
Strange, for me, I'd give my ---------(fill in the blank) to sound and play like Mr. Leister, what some people might condem as "inflexibility" I go "wow! what an incredibly even sound throughout the range of the instrument."
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Author: kilo
Date: 2007-01-13 21:34
I remember a Deutsche Gramophone LP of his Brahms Quintet that I got in 1970. I wore it out. Sublime.
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-01-14 02:15
Listening to this ,one realizes that every trill is shaken instead of played, and many are simply shaken and for me not in good control. Perhaps it was not a great evening, but is was very unsatisfying, especially since the trills are offensively out of tune for the most part. Frequently,he sounds absolutely amazing in the orchestra,however not this time.
sherman friedland
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2007-01-14 19:41
However, Mr. Leister in spite of such a poor recording is easily in the top 5 of clarinet players in the last century. I don't believe in such terms as the greatest etc..
He is by far and away the most influencial player in Europe at least and easily among the finest ensemble/solists alive.
David Dow
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2007-01-14 20:50
Mr. Friedland is entitled to his opinion concerning Karl Leisters playing, but I find it offensive to criticize the way somebody prefers to execute something like trills, if that’s the only criticism he’s giving. Leister generally prefers fast trills in Weber which is fine since this is mainly virtuoso style music. If he chooses to occasionally do so with the aid of his arm and “shake” for better speed it’s entirely a part of his artistic integrity. There are two trills that are slightly out of tune for speed reasons; one is G#5-A5 for which he has chosen to use the side Bb key which is perfect for that reason. Like this the A is slightly sharp but as a trill still acceptable for the ear. The other one is the Bb4-C5 trill in the Db-major section. Here he’s using the normal side keys, these are slightly worse in tune on the German system so he can’t really be blamed for that. For the rest of the trills he is using perfectly normal fingerings.
Once you have reached a career like Karl Leister’s or Stanley Drucker’s for that matter there is no room for being orthodox or picture perfect. You do what you have to do in a way you choose yourself.
For my taste the ensemble could have used one more rehearsal but that’s a different matter. Leister’s playing is perfectly all right and I don’t think that he personally had a bad evening
Alphie
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-01-14 21:59
Well, the playing is what I find offensive and I think that the choices were poor, especially for a player of Leister's quality, very high indeed, as stated in my last posting.The trills were poorly played,period. There is no accelerando marked and it is executed poorly,unconvincingly. Sabine Mayer's is better , extremely fast, too fast, and Larry Combs is best, perfectly executed in every way, not a matter of taste, simple purity is all.
This is not a complicated work, very easy to hear and to judge. The high A is screamed barely in control,certainly not a difficult note to execute,especially in it's particular context. Your statement concerning Drucker or Leister is incorrect and poorly chosen for these are exactly the carreers where definitive playing is shown or not.
Sherman Friedland
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2007-01-14 22:04
As I said, you're entitled to your opinions and I don’t necessarily agree, period.
Alphie
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2007-01-15 00:24
If you consider how difficult some elements of the Oehler trills and set up are then this is understandable. Herbert Stahr did a super studio recording of this in the 70s on Philips...however sometimes live performances can have a down side..oddly enough I find the quartet on this(you tube performance) not very good either..bit sloppy and maybe just a bit too edgy
David Dow
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2007-01-15 00:45
This is so boring performance I could just fall asleep. For German style playing Sabine Meyer plays this piece much better and with much more energy.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2007-01-15 10:16
Also remember the tape on this recording also seems to be quite out of sync with the players and you have a good deal of recording flutter. Not the best way to just a performance of these players or calibre..I tend to find the entire youtube recording questionable in terms of tape quality.
David Dow
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-01-15 18:41
Thanks for the information on finding this recorded video. I enjoyed it although I agree with the others about the rather unorthodox embouchure. I won't say anything negative about his playing since he's thousands of times better than me.
If everyone played exactly the same with exactly the same style and tone what would be the point?
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2007-01-15 20:47
It’s so typical amateurs to point out when star players puff their cheeks, mush their chin, shake their trills, point their instrument in some other direction than straight forward, move when they play, wiggle the ears when changing registers, anchor tongue, you name it…
As a young student I once asked Karl Leister why he played like he did in two bars in his recording of the Brahms Quintet. It was not the correct rhythm as I had learned it, meaning not with the metronome. His short answer was: “Because I feel like it”. This is the correct answer to any of the above.
One difference between an amateur and a pro is that amateurs don’t dare to do anything of the above mentioned and not anything spectacular with the music either out of fear of being unorthodox. That’s why they get pleasure out of watching a star player doing something “wrong”. It makes them feel less inferior and it makes me angry because as a pro these are the last things to think about. We are busy playing concerts several times a week and if I wiggle my ears it comes with the ticket.
Alphie
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Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2007-01-15 21:24
Sherman Friedland is anything but an amateur. He is a highly respected clarinetist who played in a major orchestra for many years. Unlike Sherman, I admire Leister's playing. But I will concede that no one is a perfect player, and no one is above criticism. And if Sherman thinks he's superior to Leister, I'd love for him to post a video of himself proving the point. The same goes to the rest of you. Prove it. If you're better, I'll be the first to admit it. I just need the proof. Right now you're just faceless people who talk tough.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2007-01-15 22:15
I have the deepest respect for Sherman Friedland’s achievements over the years even though I’ve never heard him play and I would never point out any unorthodox manners of his if I noticed any. Having said that I’m surprised how he is pointing with his whole hand to a fellow colleague in a public space like this practically saying: “sorry Mr. Leister but your performance suck”. I wish Mr. Leister would show up here and take the debate. I would sit on the front row watching.
Alphie
Post Edited (2007-01-15 22:44)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2007-01-16 00:07
There are many aspects of clarinet playing that incredibly unorthodox at time...one of these aspects is the great leangths a clarinetist will go to play in tune or even distort the sound in order to create a quality the music is looking for.
David Dow
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Author: jmcgann
Date: 2007-01-16 00:50
I don't think Mr. Friedland is asserting he is a better player than Mr. Leister. However, active professionals rarely take public potshots at other professionals. It's bad politics and pretty poor sport IMHO.
Karl Leister does post here on occasion. His list of accomplishments speaks for itself.
www.johnmcgann.com
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2007-01-16 00:53
"Karl Leister does post here on occasion."
--------------------------------------------------
Really? Would you please be kind enough to point me and others to his posts?
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
Post Edited (2007-01-16 00:54)
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Author: jmcgann
Date: 2007-01-16 01:02
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=102006&t=101740
Maybe I've been duped and it's not him, but someone using his name...
www.johnmcgann.com
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-01-16 01:28
jmcgann wrote:
> Maybe I've been duped and it's not him, but someone using his
> name...
Duped.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2007-01-16 02:14
Hi, regarding "because I feel like it" This is reminiscent of Jascha Heifitz and playing style. I guess he earned the "artistic license" to break a few rules as a soloist. For students to copy Leister and Heifitz might not be a good idea.......Somehow students don't have the same artistic license, and perhaps no two people have the same license. You create your own. Mine was revoked last year. John
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-01-16 13:38
I just happened to look at the board this morning and must establish that in no way would I even think of competing with any clarinet player, and the criticism I made of Leister's playing was made incredulously more than anything else. I was surprised that he would execute simply incorrectly and that he would shake trills, shaking being the equivalent of shaking the cadential trill in the slow movement of the Beethoven Pastoral Symphony. Trills are simply not made to be shaken, ...only stirred if you will. And those who know will know of what I speak. A clarinetist never uses this purely physical way of making a trill except in unisons, or say, in a large section, and even that is dangerous.
A trill is an accent after all, and that is all.
Yes, I have played the Weber many times, but never to compete. Except for the exquisite slow movement,it is not a great piece. The fact that Weber is quite important as a composer of Opera is manifest in that slow movement especially, and therefore there are great opportunities for study especially for a clarinetist. In any Weber work for the clarinet, the lyrical and operatic sections are the most beautiful.
Mr Leister is a wonderful and an amzing clarinetist, but sorry to say, he has been eclipsed, like everyone is eventually, myself included. Bonade,Mclane,Wright,Marcellus,Gaston Hamelin who played the metal Selmer in the Boston and was dismissed by Koussevitzky for that reason prior to the 1930 season. for some reason I think of them as heroic trailblazers and they simply will live forever, at least for me. Yes, and Benny and Artie.
On each May 7 I would perform the Mozart and Brahms Quintets, it being Brahms birthday, (and I retired on that day as well), and that was quite enough.
Stay well, and play well.
Sherman Friedland
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-01-16 15:21
A few more stray puffs,if you do not mind .
I think that there is a body of standard repertoire.certainly the Weber Quintet being one that is played in certain time-honored ways, or with certain styles, sometimes more than one being possible. Imagination is always allowed , for instance in the playing of Richard Stolzman, who sometimes sounds less well than other times, however his imagination is always present and it is always interesting. He has the technic to do what he wants and mostly does, notwhithstanding those performances which because of many factors do not or did not go well.
When a performance displays no particular imagination, is extremely well-known, it is very easy to tell that things go awry.
All performers have inconsistant days, especially in the peformance of chamber music; orchestral routine is different, as a principal can go for several seasons without a discernible mistake, and most do for that matter.
I'm told that Drucker's Neilson was made in one take, and he asked for only one, and I believe it, having heard him for many years.
Let me say that this was one of Mr Leister's not-so-great days, and that is not taking a pot-shot, not at all. If I am directed to hear a fine players performance and it is not fine, than I will state that. This is a board for players, students, everybody who loves the clarinet, and I found this performance to be of a lower standard than I would think permissable.
As a mature teacher, I would be remiss for saying less.
Sherman Friedland
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2007-01-16 16:15
Performances that are informed by historic tradition and custom are very satisfying. The music comes to us mellowed and transfigured by the passage of time.
But other viewpoints (interpretations) are welcome too. What's dank and colorless to someone may be the very flower of beauty to someone else. What's vulgar and tasteless to one, may be merely inspired rubato to others.
Every generation has it's own ideas and they should be heard...what's worthwhile in tradition can never be lost.
This does't apply to Glen Gould, who was bonkers!
I didn't know Kossy fired Hamelin...what was he thinking?
Surely Hamlin's recording of the Neilson is the benchmark...he had such a fabulous tone, even at eighty!
Clarinet Redux
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2007-01-16 17:09
I think one has to remember even pros have good and bad days....look what Barry Bonds must be going through....there is such a long tradition of technique and all of the things that go into playing and performning that it is pretty tough at times to keep things under control 100 percent of the time.
Leister has also probably gone through more change than others realize..Karajan in Berlin...career change and to top it all off getting old.
But man when he is on he is pretty fine indeed!!! I realize there are things about his playing that maybe I do not like...but there are plenty of things about my own playing I simply despise.
His recordings with Berlin in the 60s are so slick and polished that he somehow has changed not only the way players think but also the approach to tone. I consider the Weber performance in no way near the level he had gone through in this era...that alone would be unfair. He was always a subdued player but one got the feeling of a sense of wonder in terms of tone and shadings...sadly he had to get old. Karl is a true genius in terms of the clarinet...his sound is everything and yet more...!!!
Marcellus too was a total genius with a geniune tonal conception and artistry to match it....sadly some hack away at him...you gotta give Marcellus credit for one thing...superb taste and phrasing!!!
Well...I don't know..forgive me for a bit of a ramble here...Herbert Stahr is also another unsung great...he is amazing...!!!
Another superb player was Robert McInnnis....I was lucky to have studied with David Glazer who was a superb player with a great gutsy sound. Sadly too many forget the former glories of the past...its a way learning is to listen to the greats.
David Dow
Post Edited (2007-01-16 17:11)
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Author: FrankM
Date: 2007-01-16 17:29
Maybe it’s a mindset….maybe I approach listening differently than others. When I hear music, I want to be entertained….Simply put, I want to like it. I do not want to listen as an adjudicator would…I want to absorb the entire performance. I realize why a teacher may want to breakdown a performance into its parts….but for the most part I do not. I think know what it takes to play the clarinet at the pro level {based on my inability to achieve it] and appreciate the overall effect.
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-01-16 18:57
Mr Hamelin was not re-engaged, went back to Paris and McLane went there to study with him. HAmlin not rehired according to both factual and heresay information because Koussy did not admire the Selmer metal clarinet he played, and Selmer later took that wonderful clarinet our of its catalog, this not heresay but told to me by the aged Rober McGibbon who was my super ace repair friend when I was in Milwaukee.
I knew David Glazer , heard him many times and as I think I have said on this site, we spent an afternoon trying each others mouthpieces. I played at the time a Selmer S facing, as bright as glass, and he played a Chedeville with a silver inlay and I thought he sounded rather stuffy, but when we changed we sounded exactly like each other, but in about five minutes he sounded as he did on the Chedeville and I sounded as I had on the Selmer, having switched mouthpieces. I still do not believe it.
Those were the days of glory for the New York Woodwind Quintet, and they would come to Wisconsin with the Fine Arts Quartet to play Chamber Music. Frank Glazer, David's brother would frequently play as well. For me, New York, the Woodwind Quintet has never been equaled in the days of Sam Baron, Ronnie Rosenman, David Glazer, John Barrows and Arthur Weisberg.
It ws a breathtaking group.
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