 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-01-07 21:15
I'm wondering if anyone has had experience on a long-term basis with rosewood clarinets? I do not mean the inexpensive made-in-China ones we see every so often, but rather those made by respected makers for professional instruments--Patricola, Leblanc, etc.
I've heard the wood becomes unstable after a while and the instrument becomes impossible to keep in tune. I would prefer to hear from anyone out there who has some actual experience with these.
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Author: kenabbott
Date: 2007-01-07 23:10
I have four rosewood Patricolas (Bb, A, C, Eb) and a Rossi Bb. I've had them all about five years. They each have their own idiosyncracies (the Rossi has some peculiarities up high and the P'colas in the throat tones), but none of them I attribute to age. You might want to ask Luis Rossi himself. He's always responded to my emails.
BTW: I love these horns, particularly the Rossi. The timbre is very sweet and the action magnificent.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-07 23:11
I play a kingwood oboe that's around 11 years old, and all that have played it commend it on it's 'secure' tuning. If it was unstable I'd have ditched it years ago. I've seen grenadilla ones much younger that have split (and some that have split more than twice) due to carelessness on the owner's part well within that time.
All wood is unstable to a degree, grenadilla can be unstable if it hasn't been matured properly or kiln dried, as can rosewood (of which grenadilla is part of the same family), but a well matured rosewood, kingwood and cocobolo instrument is as good as a well matured grenadilla instrument in stablity and tuning terms.
As with all wooden instruments, play them in slowly and maintain them well and they'll last you for years.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: LCL
Date: 2007-01-08 00:29
I have a Selmer Model 40 rosewood contra-alto that dates from 1968 and is in near perfect condition. No defects in the wood whatsoever!
LCL
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Author: DressedToKill
Date: 2007-01-08 02:54
My rosewood Opus is nearing ten or so years old, and it's in excellent condition and I use it in ensembles all the time and have never had tuning problems.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-01-08 12:29
LCL, I had no idea Selmer made rosewood instruments back then. And, it's good to know it's still in near perfect condition. That is a real testament.
Ken, I think you win the award for the most rosewood clarinets. You must really love them.
Post Edited (2007-01-08 12:41)
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Author: LCL
Date: 2007-01-08 12:59
Brenda,
Yes they certainly did. The upper joint is a little darker than the lower joint, but definitely rosewood, and they both have the same serial number that I verfied against the published list to establish the date of manufacture. And I bought the horn from Toby Castle in Mn, who had a number of them at the time. I think I bought it around 2001.
Regards,
LCL
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-01-08 13:41
So, LCL, do you play this instrument in a band or orchestra? Or, did you just buy it for your own personal enjoyment. (Not that you wouldn't enjoy it if you play in a band or orchestra.)
Another thought about the rosewood; does it seem to dry out faster than the grenadilla?
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-01-08 15:21
i have a beautiful aged rosewood C clarinet (Albert) that I haven't played much (mouthpiece/reed?).
It is beautiful condition.
I need to identify it someday.
Bob Phillips
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Author: LCL
Date: 2007-01-08 17:53
Brenda,
I'm a 60-year old amateur that has been playing for 50 years, the last 23 of which has been in community bands. I own a Leblanc Ab sopranino, (2) Bb sopranos that are unremarkable, a Leblanc Eb alto, a Leblanc Low-C bass clarinet, the Selmer contra-alto and a Leblanc paperclip contra-bass. I alternate between the BC, CA, and CB from concert season-to-concert season. For example, we will start our spring season rehearsal schedule on Jan. 18th, and while my BC is at Backun for modifications, I'm playing the rosewood CA. I talked to Morrie this AM and he has some great improvement ideas that we are going to discuss once he plays and tests the horn.
I oil the bore of the CA about every 6-months or so, which is about what I do for the grenadilla BC. I use the "Doctors" bore oil sparingly so as to just barely shine the bore, and it works terrific. I see no difference in the drying characteristics between the two woods in our south Louisiana climate.
I think that Selmer may use rosewood for the CA because of the weight factor, but I'm not sure. The CA actually plays much easier than the BC, that itself is very free blowing. Both the BC and CA have domed resonators that I had retrofitted and they make the sound boom out. Not to brag, but I can be heard above 4 tubas, if I want to be.
Regards,
LCL
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-01-08 18:17
Wow, above 4 tubas. What great lungs you must have. Kudos!
As some of you may have figured out, I have been toying with buying back
one of my old instruments, a Leblanc Symphonie VII. And, I had a bit of
an attack of cold feet due to getting an email from a friend (a fellow
bboarder who will remain anonymous unless he decides to chime in on this
discussion) telling me about the potential woes of the rosewood clarinet.
Thank you all for helping me to put aside that momentary fear and going
ahead with the purchase. It's official. I'm sending out a cashier's
check today and should have the instrument back in my hands by the end of
the week.
I know the Symphonie VII didn't sell very well, but is is an absolutely
gorgeous instrument with a very sweet tone. It's not a powerhouse as far
as projection is concerned, but I plan to ship it off to Morrie for his
"touch."
A few years ago I was into buying and selling a lot of instruments and I
always regretted selling the Symphonie VII. So, to make a long story
short, the buyer offered it back and I went for it.
Thanks again everyone for your input. And, don't stop now. I want to hear
more good things about rosewood instruments. I'll even listen to bad
things. 
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-01-08 22:02
Brenda:
Tom Ridenour designed all of the Opus clarinets for Leblanc, including the Rosewood Symphony VII, and of course, the Sonata, The Espirit,LX ,Opus, and Concerto.
I suggest that you contact him. His opinion is based upon perhaps the richest and most successful design experience in the business.
I'm sure he will answer you honestly as he does anyone .
No offense, but a question asking owners will always get the same rave review. These people love these instruments, pay a fortune for them and deserve all our respect, however can they answer with total knowledge?
Perhaps you may wish to ask Mr Morales ,who I've heard had a rosewood, and then , he didn't have it.
Of course, I'm an advocate of non-wooden instruments for purposes of stability, though I love the tropical woods which are gorgeous upon which to look.
Having played so many concerts on grenadilla, rosewood,plastic,metal, rubber in halls in Montreal and New York, and Colorado where the temperature felt unlike anywhere outside of the Antarctic, I know what grenadilla does in these temperatures and where it does it's most heinous and grievous work.
As I told you in my note to you,and only you, which was sent as a helpful comment, and which you have turned into a meretricious posting, I have found that Rosewood is dimentionally unstable, whether barrel or entire instrument.More unstable than grenadilla. If not now, then soon. Very soon, nothwithstahding it's fans, which may be legion. Fixing it requires the bore coated with a stable material .
stay well.
Sherman Friedland
http://clarinet.cc
Post Edited (2007-01-09 09:28)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-01-09 00:54
Brenda,
I bought the rosey at auction from England. the seller thought it was a LeBlanc, but it has no markings and was shipped in a LeBlanc case.
I need to share come photos and see if we can ID it.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-01-09 13:51
Sherman, I did not disclose the contents of your note to me, nor your name in my posting. But I do apologize publically if I have offended you. I truly appreciate your friendship and your concern in the email and I have taken it to heart. I believe you are an expert in our field and respect you for that. But, I really needed to hear some more opinions before making my final decision and wanted the specific viewpoint of players. I agree that Tom Ridenour is one of the foremost experts in this design and also know that Ricardo Morales contributed to it before moving on to other instruments. Perhaps he didn't like the brightness of the tone--who knows. He's played so many brands and types of clarinets it's hard to say why he moves from one to the other. Looking for a better sound, feel, whatever. He is ear candy whatever he plays.
I have purchased the instrument back and will do whatever modifications need to be done to it when I get it. And, I'll see how long it's a good one. I do have others, you know. So, if in 10 years it's a pile of out of tune rosewood it will probably still make a great decoration in my study.
Thanks everyone.
I wonder how many Leblanc Symphonie VIIs there are out there? If anyone knows anyone who owns one, let me know.
Bob, post those photos and we'll take a look.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-01-09 14:14
Let's see....M-E-R-E-T-R.....
Damn'd dictionaries...can't ever find what I want when I want it...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-09 14:48
If rosewood and other exotic hardwoods were unstable, then no-one would have used them to make instruments with at all, and still wouldn't - but look at how many makers are using kingwood and cocobolo almost exclusively on their most expensive models.
Plastic is less stable dimentionally than wood, and is weaker as it hasn't the tensile strength of wood, and there are far more plastic clarinets out there.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: winstondawg
Date: 2007-01-09 15:45
Brenda:
I have a Symphonie vii (Vancouver, BC) since Dec 2000. Just had it worked over by Peter Spriggs.
By the way, I also have a Paul Covey violetwood oboe. Apparently violetwood may be another term for rosewood.
jc
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-09 17:39
Kingwood and violetwood are one and the same thing - they are part of the rosewood family, but not the same as Honduras rosewood, it's another kind of rosewood.
When you machine kingwood/violetwood you'll see how it get's it's name - the freshly cut timber and sawdust is a vibrant purple colour, but it soon turns brown after exposure to light.
Cocobolo is bright orange when first machined, but after polishing it turns a deep crimson colour (though hugely variable), and eventually turns as black as grenadilla.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-01-09 19:44
winstondawg, thanks so much. I first purchased this Leblanc Symphonie VII in Dec. of 2001. As I understand it, the man I sold it to never played it and has kept it in storage. Let me know how you're doing with it. Peter Spriggs has a great reputation.
This instrument originally retailed for over $6,000.00. I bought it from Lisa Argiris at International Musical Suppliers (another favorite of ours) for $3,795.00 in 2001. One would hope (as Chris P has stated) that these high-dollar instruments from reputable manufacturers would be of a pretty high quality and would last a player a reasonable number of years. How many years is reasonable (I've learned from another posting) is a great variable. And, just because something is expensive doesn't mean it's perfect. I learned that with automobiles. But, that's another topic.
I play in moderate to warm climates (Texas mainly), and don't expect to subject it to extreme temperatures.
I'm anxious to play it and hear how the tone has changed in the years it's been put away. That is if I remember what it used to sound like.
Terry, here's the dictionary definition for "meretricious:"
Pronunciation: "mer-&-'tri-sh&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin meretricius, from meretric-, meretrix prostitute, from merEre to earn -- more at MERIT
1 : of or relating to a prostitute : having the nature of prostitution <meretricious relationships>
2 a : tawdrily and falsely attractive <the paradise they found was a piece of meretricious trash -- Carolyn See> b : superficially significant : PRETENTIOUS <scholarly names to provide fig-leaves of respectability for meretricious but stylish books -- Times Literary Supplement>
synonym see GAUDY
I really don't see how it fits the posting of this topic, but another thing that most are not aware of is that I tried to post this topic BEFORE Sherman sent me an email--it was not posted BECAUSE of his email. It was censored because of the ongoing auction rule (not mentioning things that were currently running on an auction) and I got permission from GBK to post the question on rosewood instruments after Sherman's email because I really wanted to hear from owners of these instruments. I'm certainly not a prostitute (the first part of the definition) and did not try to post a pretentious posting. I'm merely interested in this subject. Sherman's email to me concerning the instability of rosewood is only a small portion of my questions concerning the Leblanc Symphonie VII and other rosewood instruments. But, I'm not offended--misunderstandings happen all the time. Sherman meant well and so did I.
Post Edited (2007-01-09 19:58)
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Author: winstondawg
Date: 2007-01-09 20:26
Brenda:
I'm an amateurish amateur, so my comments may not mean much. When I first played my sym vii, I could play the altissimo range (to a-natural) without any problem (ie. very easily) relative to my leblanc concerto.
I'm still happy with my sym vii, especially after Peter Spriggs had worked on mine. Nonetheless, I'm sorry I can't enlighten you as to the stability of rosewood. By the way, I paid Cdn 6k then (blush).
=====================
Chris P.:
Thanks for the info on the different woods.
jc
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-01-09 22:11
Actually, I am not overly concerned about the stability of the rosewood. I think it's something that we'll discover over time and 5 years isn't long enough to make any kind of realistic assessment. It's something I wanted to know about only in the vein of having the information so I am not caught off guard in the future.
Thanks winstondawg. Keep on keeping on.
Post Edited (2007-01-09 22:12)
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Author: Michael E. Shultz
Date: 2007-01-09 22:27
I played a Conn Bass Clarinet with a one-piece plastic body for one year in high school (class of 1974), and then a rosewood Selmer Eb Contra Alto for two years. Although I quickly learned to transpose Bb Bass Clarinet parts on sight (when Eb Contra Alto music was unavailable), I preferred the Conn Bass Clarinet (I know, I am committing sacrilege).
The plastic Conn sounded every bit as good, and had the full clarinet range, while I never was able to play the high notes on the Selmer. From what I am reading on this board, the Selmer's problem was in the register key design. The low clarinets need a more complicated register key mechanism in order to play the high notes.
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-09 22:35
Bo Eriksson, the cor anglais player with the Swedish Radio Orchestra is playing on the SAME rosewood (not kingwood or cocobolo, this one is in rosewood) S5 cor he's had for well over 25 years now and it's still in remarkable condition.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-01-10 00:29
Brenda is absolutely correct. We both mean no harm, only well.
Sherman Friedland
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-01-10 14:13
Thanks Sherman. I value your friendship and hope you will send me warnings every time you feel I might be about to walk into trouble. That's what friends are for and that's what this bboard is all about--education and exploration of the clarinet and clarinet family.
And, thanks GBK and Mark for letting me post because I'm learning a lot on this subject.
Michael, it's interesting that you like the Conn over the Selmer, but I'm wondering if the Selmer needed some slight adjusting or perhaps even an overhaul. You said you played it in school, so I'm assuming it was a school instrument. They get banged around a lot over the years and bass clarinets need constant care when they "live" in dangerous habitats like that (as do other instruments). I played an alto clarinet in Jr. Hi. that was brand new (Leblanc Noblet), but when I went to high school the instrument I was given was a total disaster. It makes sense to me that you would prefer the one that played and sounded better.
As to my ongoing survey about who owns Symphonie VIIs, I now know of 4 people (unless we include Ricardo Morales if he kept his): winstondawg, myself, a player in Dallas named Larry (can't remember his last name) and a lawyer in Boston. I'm sure they (the Symphonie VII) were a commercial bust for Leblanc. I think they were way too expensive for most people to purchase new. But, since they've been around several years now there may be other used ones come up. This one is staying with me this time.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-10 15:01
French bassoons (Buffet and Selmer) are still made in rosewood - whereas German bassoons are made in a very unstable wood - maple.
Unless it has been treated well before, during and after manufacture, it will last for years.
And see how many pre-war Heckels are still going strong.
So I wouldn't worry about the longevity and stability of rosewood, and an instrument made from it by a reputable company.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-01-10 15:30
Thanks Chris P. That's interesting about the maple. I wonder why that particular wood was chosen for the German bassoon?
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-01-10 19:15
I've always read that it was for the lighter weight that maple affords over the dense tropical woods. Don't recall where I've seen that, though.
On the other side of the ledger, a bassoon that is not well cared for will crack just as readily as any other instrument. The thin walls of the long joint, and the perpetually moist bottom of the boot joint are both vulnerable to damage, and maple affords no particular advantage in this area.
I've got an old (early 1900's, or (for those who relish getting older) "...a horn from the beginning of the previous century...") Heckel that had a crack in the top end of the long joint. The owner was distressed when I pointed it out to him six or seven years ago, but it was enough to get him to purchase the new Fox he plays on now. Guess who bought the old horn for $333.33, had it fixed for a couple of hundred bucks, and enjoys using it now?
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Michael E. Shultz
Date: 2007-01-11 00:11
Brenda:
The bass and contra clarinets were school instruments, but were in excellent condition. I was quite fussy about my instruments, and tried to keep them in perfect shape (I thought that perfect instruments would help make up for lack of practice!). The rosewood contra did have a 1/4" long crack into a tonehole cutout, but not into the tonehole itself. The crack did not penetrate the bore.
The girl who inherited the contra had a chance to play another contra, which she said was easier to play. Perhaps I should have borrowed the director's leak light and done a thorough check (my leak light was too big for clarinets).
My main complaint with the contra was the lack of range. The contra did not have the little hole in the thumb key like the bass, although from what I am reading on this board, it would have taken more than that to make it play the high notes.
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-01-11 13:47
Terry you got a great deal. Sometimes people suffer from what I call "instrument hypochondria" when something like a crack is discovered. Then it doesn't matter at all what the tech says, it's gotta go. A skilled person (such as yourself) can fix this problem and enjoy a great instrument for many years.
Michael, it does sound like there was something that needed a little "tweaking" on the contra since the second player found the same problem and didn't have a problem when she moved to the other contra.
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