 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: joannew
Date: 2007-01-04 09:29
I know it's not easy to do on modern instruments, but does anyone know if there is a period instrument ensemble playing with just, rather than equal, temperament? Any recordings that I could listen to, to get an impression?
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-01-04 10:38
I don't know of any by name but just intonation is one of the main features of period inst. ensembles. ie. Just about all recorded period inst. ensembles use it.
S
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2007-01-04 15:49
It's probably worth being clear that all good players AD-JUST to 'just' temperament routinely in the standard repertoire -- all those players that can, that is. 'Just' tuning involves having intervals be frequency-related by small whole-number ratios, which is what our ears prefer, for reasons that can be given a plausible evolutionary explanation.
'Temperament' is a general term for the attempt (there are various possibilities) to make a fixed pitch instrument like a piano well ad-justed IN SOME KEYS -- it's not possible to do it for more than a few. That worked well in simple music that stuck to those keys, but failed when composers wanted to use distant keys, which were inevitably MAL-AD-JUSTED:-)
Equal temperament just gives up on the problem, and has everything more or less 'out of tune', thereby incidentally smoothing over music in which composers had tried to 'use' the out-of-tuneness of some keys for relatively crude 'effects' -- like, "this music comes from Hell, and that from Heaven, so let's have the Hellish music in the out-of-tune keys on this particular fixed-pitch instrument."
However, good players of wind and string instruments, modern or not, and good singers, have always made microtonal AD-JUSTMENTS -- except in the very few cases where DELIBERATE out-of-tuneness can be effectively exploited.
Tony
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-04 17:25
I just wish on documentaries people would actually demonstrate mean tone temperament and just how out of tune-sounding it is when playing in remote keys (such as Db or F# major) on a harpsichord tuned to mean tone temperament and compared to one at equal temperament - they only say these keys sounded pretty bad to the listener and were never used until equal temperament made it possible for all keys to have the same ratios between notes, but just for once it would be interesting to hear how they would have sounded instead of playing them as we're used to hearing them - on a modern piano.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2007-01-04 17:59
Take a look at http://www.kylegann.com/tuning.html
This has a detailed explanation of Just intonation, some examples, and a list of recordings using different temperaments and microtuning.
This won't take care of Chris P's request, but might lead you in the direction you seek.
Johng
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-01-04 18:01
During the period called Baroque and pre-baroque, mostly mean-tone tuning was used, necessitating that all the works on a single program involving one keyboard would need to have the same tuning or temperament.
There were many different temperaments used and some of those are still known today, at least their names, however the exact sound would be difficult to approximate, one would imagine.
This culminated in the composition of the WTC, those preludes and fugues by JSBach which illustrated equal-tempered tuning and really made things quite a bit easier for programming purposes.
And of course, by extension and evolution our present method of tuning has emerged, which as stated, is really out-of-tuning.
The wonderful Tony Pay has stated it correctly, that most fine players play most things slightly out-of-tune, but complying to the majority of an audience in attendance, and therefore sounding, in tune.
This has caused all of the tuning weirdness committed by many makers of instruments, and why performance with a piano is so difficult, why the great tuners are known, as are the great players.
The ability to be unbelievably flexible in execution is one of the hallmarks of a really fine player, as is Mr Pay.
Example of purposely out of tune can be found in Benjamin Brittens, Serenade for Tenor, Horn and Strings, in which "natural" horn is used, meaning without the termpering that the player does with his hand in order to be intune.
As a member of the Center for The Creative and Performing Arts during the 60's, we were all asked to play certain notes out-of-tune with great purpose on the part of those many composers who enjoyed each others presence in a crowded Carnegie Recital Hall.
Music History can be most boring for many student players, however it is one of the many learnings that enrich us each day as we celebrate the past in our playing.
best,
sherman friedland
Post Edited (2007-01-04 18:11)
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Author: ginny
Date: 2007-01-04 18:22
http://pages.globetrotter.net/roule/js/acc.htm
This is a fun site that lets you hear various tunings. They all start to sound just awful pretty quickly.
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Author: joannew
Date: 2007-01-04 18:47
thanks for a great link, JohnG. Here's my favourite excerpt:
"My teacher, Ben Johnston, was convinced that our tuning is responsible for much of our cultural psychology, the fact that we are so geared toward progress and action and violence and so little attuned to introspection, contentment, and acquiesence. Equal temperament could be described as the musical equivalent to eating a lot of red meat and processed sugars and watching violent action films. The music doesn't turn your attention inward, it makes you want to go out and work off your nervous energy on something."
This page also links to a good collection of mp3s. Sounds like this could be good ear therapy!
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Author: Bubalooy
Date: 2007-01-04 21:22
Well Tempered and equal tempered are not one and the same. Mr. Bach was well aware of the difference in sound from key to key and exploited it in these compositions. They are not as effective (though I agree they are still wonderful) on an equally tempered instrument.
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2007-01-05 05:26
Equal temperaments aren't too bad except major,minor 3rd.
And modern music is almost impossible without using equal temperaments.
Singers frequently get out of tune up to 30 cents or so,therefore just or equal temperaments doesn't really matter.That's why equal temperaments scale sounds not so bad after all.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2007-01-05 11:20
Koo Young Chung wrote:
>> Equal temperaments aren't too bad except major, minor 3rd.>>
Minor sevenths are bad, too.
> > And modern music is almost impossible without using equal temperaments.>>
Yes. The thing to see, for a proper appreciation of this whole subject, is that sticking to ANY ONE temperament -- ie, a FIXED solution to the problem of playing in tune -- is necessary only for an instrument that is inflexible, and can't adjust on the fly.
Everyone else is involved in the business of making compromises. There can be different, equally 'correct' ways of tuning a complex chord, depending on context.
You sometimes hear someone say, well, it can't be ME that's out of tune in that chord, because I've been playing the same Bb for the whole bar before!
But it can -- in the sense that it may be better to change the Bb than do anything else.
Anyhow, looked at in this way, equal temperament is just the best place TO START FROM in modern music -- just as some other temperaments are the best places to start from in earlier music.
On a lighter note:
>> Singers frequently get out of tune up to 30 cents or so, therefore>>
..they should be sacked, or more simply...
>>just>>
..shot.
If wind...
>>or>>
...string players actually PLAYED that out of tune, they would quickly lose their jobs. It just goes to show that instrumentalists aren't judged on an...
>>equal>>
...footing to singers.
While we're on the subject of singers, here's another complaint: we have to put up with their so-called 'artistic'...
>>temperaments>>
...too, to what I'd say is an unreasonable extent.
Still, all things considered, I suppose it...
>>doesn't really matter.>>
It takes all sorts to make a world, doesn't it? And let's face it, in opera, singers have to worry about their acting, and staying together with the orchestra -- well, some of them worry about that -- it's just a much more demanding thing than being in the pit. We have our difficulties too, of course, but theirs are just so much more obvious to the general public.
>>That's why>>
...players and singers will never get...
>>equal>>
...acknowledgement for what they do.
As for artistic...
>>temperaments>>
...I'm not so sure I wouldn't find it much too tiring to live my life on that sort of grand...
>>scale>>.
No, when I think about it, the life of a clarinet player...
>>sounds not so bad after all.>>
:-)
Tony
Post Edited (2007-01-06 13:31)
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2007-01-05 11:50
Tony, what sort of autism do you suffer from, puzzling the way you do? ![[right]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie8.gif)
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-01-05 14:14
There will always be inconsistencies in the way that various artists/instrumentalists are treated. Intonation on the part of singers is only the most obvious of these.
(And, to be fair, one that is only to be expected. Remember, most vocalists don't sing in terms of notes - they sing in terms of interval. The whole "give me a pitch" bit is nothing more than calibration of that system, from which point the singer goes up a third, down a third, up a fifth and so on.)
What chaps my ass is the differing standards of intonation and articulation that string players are held to. I've heard examples of pitch bending and sloppy articulation on the part of the greats in the string world that would get a clarinet player sacked on the spot, yet with their instruments it is somehow legit. Something's wrong there...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-05 15:51
"I've heard examples of pitch bending and sloppy articulation on the part of the greats in the string world that would get a clarinet player sacked on the spot, yet with their instruments it is somehow legit. Something's wrong there..."
If they can do it well it sounds great, but I think as wind players where we have to maintain cleanliness in our playing we are jealous of them in some ways as it's not acceptable for us to pitch bend in an orchestral setting (unless specified), so we feel they're getting away with murder.
But we as clarinet players and clarinettists can do other things which string players can't, so the balance is restored - and we're not cattle like string players either - we don't hide behind others!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-01-05 20:04
Yup, the old "I play in the symphony" line doesn't sound quite as impressive when they have to add that they are sitting at the sixth desk in the Second Violins. It's the string equivalent of playing left guard on a college football team...
The articulation and pitch issues that I refer to there are not the intentional ones, but rather the "smudges" in chromatic runs and the like, where the note lengths are unequal (in many cases, very unequal) and the intonation something (ahem) "less than optimal". Try and point that out to a string person, and see how far your line of argument gets...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2007-01-06 13:30
Terry Stibal wrote:
>> There will always be inconsistencies in the way that various artists/instrumentalists are treated. Intonation on the part of singers is only the most obvious of these.>>
All of that section of my post (now re-edited to make it clear to everyone) was just a joke, Terry.
I must have been more successful than I thought in creating a quasi-coherent theme for my reinterpretation of, and interpolations to, a quote of part of Koo Young Chung's post -- to whom I should have apologised in case he should be offended.
So, sorry for my presumption, Koo Young Chung.
Tony
Post Edited (2007-01-06 13:32)
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-01-06 14:35
'It's probably worth being clear that all good players AD-JUST to 'just' temperament routinely'
As so often, Tony hits the nail on the head. This is another reason why the Bb and A instruments aren't /quite/ the same: play the same piece in the same pitch on both, and it's a whole different set of fingerings which you're having to adjust.
If you've ever played on a tired old clarinet with all the pad heights out of adjustment so the note tunings are randomly scattered, you'll find that the instrument works well in some keys and very poorly in others. With the right modulation, a composer can completely floor you. But even with a good instument, the player must be awake to how the modulations in a piece will /appear/ to throw their tuning out of whack.
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Author: Bubalooy
Date: 2007-01-06 20:45
Mr. Pay you have it exactly right. Especially the bit about the held pitch from the previous bar. It may not be functioning the same way in the harmony. One more example that listening to the whole is at least as important as listening to yourself.
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