 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Caco185
Date: 2006-12-31 04:04
I've been struggling at getting the tone I want lately. I've been putting roughly 2 hours a day in on practicing lately and everything I play sounds a bit too bright, crass and thin. My instructor constantly tells me I have a fine rich sound. She says I am not actually hearing what I actually sound like because of the bone structure, fluid and such in my head. Is this right? I thought we were always supposed to trust our own ears?
I recently switched from the M-15 to the Genussa Excellente. I go back to the M-15 and it sounds way worse than my Excellente. The sound is just ugly. BUT! The table the reed lays on has gouges from the Eddie Daniels Ligature I used previously. Which is probably why the mouthpiece isn't working well.
I'm playing on a Vandoren V-12 #4 or Gonzales 3.75 (which seem a bit more stiff and give me a bit more power, but not as refined, controlled or centered tone). Now, I notice the reeds tips are getting wavy rather quickly. What causes this? Is this affecting tone?
Is there an advice anyone can give me? I'm getting extremely discouraged and angry with clarinet.. I need help and encouragement folks!!
Dale Huggard
Clarinet Performance Major, Michigan
Buffet R-13 - Silver plated
Genussa Excellente
Spriggs Floating Rail Ligature
Vandoren V12 #4
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-12-31 04:28
Caco185 wrote:
> My
> instructor constantly tells me I have a fine rich sound. She
> says I am not actually hearing what I actually sound like
> because of the bone structure, fluid and such in my head. Is
> this right? I thought we were always supposed to trust our own
> ears?
Believe your instructor - she's right. What you hear is a mishmash of sounds that are part carried by the air, and part carried through your bones.
But - if you don't believe your instructor, who can hear you play, why would you believe any of us, who can't hear you play? Have you had a good recording made?
If you're attending Michigan State or University of Michigan, then you have access to some of the finest teachers anywhere. The clarinet profs at Eastern and Western are no slouches, either, along with the teachers at Wayne State. The other college/university Music programs might be fine, too, I just don't happen to have any info on them.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Caco185
Date: 2006-12-31 04:45
I do in fact have 2 decent recordings of myself. I sound alright. It's just a bit bright than I want.. Many thanks for your post!
Dale Huggard
Clarinet Performance Major, Michigan
Buffet R-13 - Silver plated
Genussa Excellente
Spriggs Floating Rail Ligature
Vandoren V12 #4
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Escsrc
Date: 2006-12-31 05:15
Find an easy way to record yourself immediately, and play a few scales; then play back the recording (preferably with closed-backed headphones or a quiet room, so you can focus on the playing) IMMEDIATELY and you'll notice that yeah, what you hear isn't exactly what everyone else hears. Also good to take into account what room you practice in versus your teacher/performance hall/etc. when you consider "brightness". Especially with the lower ones, I've noticed for myself...
I'd reasoned that the "waves" are made by different expansion/contractions due to moisture/temperature differences in the reed because its grain isn't very regular (that being, your mouth's moisture/breath temperature affects it differently at different portions of the reed, as well as the environment when you store reeds). Unless the waves are really noticeably, they shouldn't be too much a problem... but if it's worrying you, you should look into a new way to store your reeds, and/or resurface them if they get really warped (two hours can do this to a thin tip really easily I've noticed!). I personally like to use a small plaque of plexiglass, sometimes a bit of 600 grit sandpaper as well. I've also found that polishing the reed seems to keep it from getting waterlogged too quickly...anyway, that's just the stuff I've experienced/been told by teachers.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-12-31 10:25
Wavy reeds don't play right.
I find some brands do it more than others - LaVoz and Xilema are the worst culprits. Something to do with the changing water content of the reed as it's alternately played and rested. Mine usually wrinkle as they dry and then wake up again after about ten minutes of playing.
Recently I've been experimenting with a new reed case where the reeds are stored on a glass plate in a wood/velvet box. This seems to make things a whole lot better.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mags1957
Date: 2006-12-31 14:19
This is from another thread, but if you're having problems with wavy reeds, try the Rico reed vitalizer to store your reeds in. It's only about $10 and it really works! The vandoren hygro case works, but not as well, IMO, and is much more expensive.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-12-31 15:54
The point, above, about your practice room acoustics is a significant one.
I have two regular practice venues: my great room, with high ceilings and a lot of resonant spaces, and the (ugh) big (144-sq ft) walk-in closet that is lined with clothing.
In the "hole" my tone feels (bone conduction) thin and wimpy.
In the great room, everything sounds much fuller. I'm fortunate in that my colleagues love to come play in my better space.
Another thought: Getting your teeth off of the mouthpiece greatly changes your perception of the sound you're making. I use a thickish -1.5-mm rubber pad. Its more than is needed to protect the mouthpiece, but more effective in isolating the mouthpiece from your skull. At my teacher's suggestion, I cut the thick pads in half --to minimize the amount of changes they (might) make to the mouthpiece vibrations.
Its important to have the sort of tone-awareness you have. I'm always shocked at how much better my teacher sounds than I do --even if I'm having a good week when I call on him for my lesson. --of course, he assures me, "you sound fine."
Bob Phillips
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Caco185
Date: 2006-12-31 16:28
Great help guys! I think the problem is the opposite of Maggie's. Her reeds wake up after ten minutes of playing. Mine seem to get too soft and really thin after ten minutes.
The room I practice in is quite resonate. Tall ceiling, brick walls, and tile floor. I ALWAYS sound at least decent in there. It's just not the sound I have been looking for. Any more help would be greatly appreciated!
Dale Huggard
Clarinet Performance Major, Michigan
Buffet R-13 - Silver plated
Genussa Excellente
Spriggs Floating Rail Ligature
Vandoren V12 #4
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tedm
Date: 2006-12-31 19:28
if you can record yourself, or have a friend record, and listen, it does sound different, very possible your tone is much better than you think.
2 Artley 17S & 1 Buffet B12 Crampon
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: joeyscl
Date: 2007-01-01 00:34
Have you ever noticed that what you hear when you speak and what you hear when you hear a RECORDING of yourself speaking is *VERY* different
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Phurster
Date: 2007-01-01 11:17
It maybe that you already have a fine sound but what you are producing is not matching the sound concept in your head.
Since ultimately we only have to please ourselves with tone (if someone else likes it, that is a bonus) there are a number of things that can be done to "darken" the sound.
Equipment is one avenue of exploration:
A greater taper to the bore is said to darken the sound. Experiment with Moennig and Chadash barrels.
The Vandoren "13" series mouthpieces have a larger chamber. This is said to darken the tone. It also lowers the pitch so you may have to combine this with a shorter barrel.
If this fails you could consider changing instruments. Rossi, Wurlitzer (Reform), Selmer Recital may move you closer to the concept you have in your head.
Any mouthpiece with gouges on the facing sounds dodgy and should probably be disgarded.
The other things you could try are a fair bit cheaper.
Be carful with reed selection. the Vandorens that you use should be ok.
Try slow long tones adjusting your oral cavity to bring out the harmonics you like(Not sure how much sucess is possible with this).
Have some lessons with someone whose tone you admire.
As I write all of this I realise I might be totally missing the target with this information. I would have to hear you to have any concept what you mean or want.
Good luck with your quest.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Alexis
Date: 2007-01-01 13:11
Hi
When I'm playing at my best, I feel like I'm inside the sound and am able to push it in any direction I want. Like being in a bubble.
However, sometimes I have found myself playing on the top end of the sound. To relate it to my metaphor I am on top of the bubble and only able to manipulate my sound remotely. Usually this happens if my reed is too hard and I overblow to compensate.
I would aim for the most focussed and in tune sound possible, but the one you can maintain without having to push too much. So, probably don't use the Gonzales, at least not that strength if they take away the focus. More often that not, I find that hard reeds feel like they play louder (because you can blow as hard as you like) but don't actually sound any louder.
Perhaps you could tell us some other symptoms of your sound problems?
Does it feel inflexible? Does it inhibit your musicality? Is it uneven across the instrument?One of the features of what I consider to be a bad bright tone, is a lack of nuance. Can you cover the sound at all? Or is it always the same degree of brightness?
Wavy reeds are probably due to a storage/humidity issue as has already been said.
I might be able to give more ideas with more information
sorry for the underdeveloped bubble analogy
alex
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D
Date: 2007-01-01 14:05
Regarding wavy reeds:
If I leave a reed in the slip it comes in then it goes wavy.
If I store it in my reed holder (glass plate with elastic in a wooden box) or on perspex with a rubber band round it it is fine.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chauncey
Date: 2007-01-02 14:08
Yes, I store my reeds on a footlong piece of glass. It holds about twenty-five reeds, and I secure them on there with two rubber bands going across the glass horizontally. It really keeps my reeds sound, especially when it takes a long time to break them in. I prefer the glass plate over other reed storage products. Besides, it costs about a maximum of 2 bucks at a glassware store to have it made!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-01-02 18:40
Just a thought re. recording yourself - clarinet is difficult to mike. A simple clip on the bell won't cut the mustard. As a rule of thumb, it's best to remember that the sound comes out of the holes, not the bell. So a mike on a stand a few feet away from the holes works a whole lot better and gives a more representative recording.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: pond-jumper
Date: 2007-01-03 00:30
Dale,
I'm new to this board and by no means a professional player. I have played the soprano clarinet for over 30 years, though, in jazz bands, parades, ensembles and in church. I frequently find I want to chage between bright and dark tone, depending on the setting of my performance. I used to accomplish that only with mouthpiece changes (which does make a noticible difference).
In the past 3 or 4 years, I discovered another means, rather by accident. I have always used a metal ligature. In fact, I've just purchased a Vandoren Optimum (too soon for me to give any judgement on it) as a replacement for the original Buffet ligature which finally broke. I'm struggling to get my tone back, but it is coming along.
A few years ago, a friend gave me her Rovner "leatherette" ligature. This is not made any longer, as Rovner now includes a metal backing to support the reed. However, on the older version I have (with no metal insert), the dark tones are amazing! Instantaneous! Now, I do sacrifice the entire altissimo range, but that's hardly used in church hymns. And that's where I use this ligature--in church. It resonates so beautifully in the open nave. And I don't really have to do anything to get that tone.
But I should also say I don't use this ligature for any other purpose. I don't really like that sound, personally, but there are times when everyone else wants it.
I might suggest you see if you can find a ligature that is entirely "soft" (except for the screw and draw-bars, that is). No metal. At all. That seems to quell the brighter reed vibrations.
As I don't swap ligatures every three years like some players I know, I'm sorry I can't suggest an exact make & model. If you have a shop nearby that carries some, take your horn, MP and reeds to the shop and try a soft ligature. Just be sure to first play on your old ligature in the shop so you know first what your old one sounds like in that environment.
One other note on this Rovner. It's actually a vinyl of some sort. The vinyl band is slit, 4 times, on either side of the reed. Supposedly this permits the vinyl to properly mold to the ever-changing shapes of the MP and reed under it. Perhaps that makes a difference. I don't see why, though. As it's vinyl, it's got a certain amount of "give" to it's shape anyway. But I thought I'd mention it exists in case that helps with your hunting.
Ric Naff,
Frisco, TX
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-01-03 00:40
Ric,
the Rovner you're describing is - aptly - called "Rovner Dark" and is alive and well and costs some 17$ last time I looked. (The one with the metal insert is Rovner's Eddie Daniels, AFAIK)
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Amber
Date: 2007-01-25 17:08
I find my tone is best on a Genussa mouthpiece with a medium facing, a Bonade inverted ligature paired with a C. Robert Scott Barrel. I keep both a 66mm and 67mm with me. The tone with this pairing is very deep, rich, centered and even. I love it. I still buy Vandoren V12's, (a 3 1/2 works well with my medium facing) and I find about 4- 5 trustworthy reeds to the box that need little or no tweaking. I keep my reeds on nothing fancy, on purpose; I slip them onto a small beveled piece of glass with heavy duty rubber bands, across the heel, and I find the reeds get just the right amount of pressure on them when not in use to allow the fibers to contract while drying without causing waviness. I use all the covered fingerings appropriate for the Buffet R13 on my throat tones and find I am, finally, after a million combinations, satisfied with my tone.
Post Edited (2007-01-25 17:18)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jblock
Date: 2007-01-25 17:26
Besides the resonance of your skull, don't forget the the sound coming out of the bell is about two feet in front of you going away from you, not coming at you. A recording will give you a good approximation of how you really sound but the room and microphone play a big part in that as well.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tedm
Date: 2007-01-25 18:10
We can't play great, but have many compliments on our recordings, we use a Shure SM57 mic, about 6-12" away from the middle of the clarinet, just far enough to not get in the way, then that goes into a Studio Projects VTB-1 mic preamp to the mixer.
2 Artley 17S & 1 Buffet B12 Crampon
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-01-25 21:03
> *** "don't forget the the sound coming out of the bell is about two feet in front of you going away from you, not coming at you". *** <
The fundamental tone and the twelfth E/B (or whatever note is the LOWEST on your clarinet) are the only notes coming out of the bell. So you can safely forget the rest.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2007-01-25 21:17
Interesting topic. When I'm really working hard on tone (sax or clarinet) I use closed cup headphones to listen to myself live as I play. I turn up the volume to 'swamp out' the conduction and direct sound. I typically use two mics, one close mic on the holes (about 12" away and pointed at the center of the horn, and a bell mic pointed at...the bell! For the close mic, I generally use a Sennheiser 421 and for the bell mic I use an SM57. Generally I just mix these to mono and feed it to both ears, but I have put one in each ear to investigate the fraction of sound that comes out of bell vs. toneholes. On a clarinet, there is still significant sound coming out of the bell through the entire right hand stack lifting. It is fun to play a chromatic scale and hear the sound come from left to right and the timbre change in each ear. Practicing long tones this way gives a lot of insight into tone production, and is not too expensive (in the grand scheme of things) to set up...e.g.
2 SM57
ART tube stereo preamp
2 mic stands
can be had new for ~$350 and the equivalent can be had used for <$200.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
