 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2006-10-06 14:26
I have often had people ask me what it is like being on stage in an orchestra. They have a hard time understanding how different our experience is from that of the audience.
Here are some of my observations:
..We can't always hear the players we are supposed to be blending and tuning with
..Trumpets are louder than you might think, and we are grateful that french horns play to the rear
..It often doesn't smell the same on stage
..the lights are usually too dim/too bright
..we usually can't see the audience due to the lighting
..even in the best of groups we hear mistakes that go unnoticed in the audience
..there are usually surprises in every live performance (we are spoiled by the near perfection of recorded music)
..sometimes there are things said - for example the uncharacteristic "s**t" coming from the harp player
Of course, there are great stories told about pit orchestras who can't be seen, but what about bands/orchestras on stage? Any more observations?
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: Markael
Date: 2006-10-06 14:30
"sometimes there are things said - for example the uncharacteristic 's**t' coming from the harp player"
LOL!
This makes me think of Garrison Keillor's Young Lutheran's Guide to the Orchestra.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-10-06 14:38
"even in the best of groups we hear mistakes that go unnoticed in the audience"
My group is certainly not among "the best of groups". When I arrive late for a practice, I usually think we sound worse from the back of the hall than it sounds to me as a player.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-10-06 14:52
johng:
It was at the other extreme from a pro setting, but in high school concert band festival competition, a part of the program that was judged was how the band entered the stage and filed into their seats. When we entered and I made my turn to go down my row of seats, the bell came off my bass clarinet and clanged across the floor almost up to the judges table. I uttered a knee-jerk "damn!", then marched over, picked up the bell, and marched to my seat (tried to do it as if it was choreographed that way).
When the judges papers were written and turned in, one judge with a sense of humor had noted something to the effect that " . . . the bass clarinet player very smartly retrieved the bell immediatly after emitting a D Augmented Minor Note that marked the occasion." There was an underline under each of the 4 capital letters in the description of the note.
Some of my fellow band members still remember that almost 45 years later.
Eu
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Author: TonkaToy
Date: 2006-10-06 15:09
Johng, you said,"..We can't always hear the players we are supposed to be blending and tuning with".
I think that's sometimes true or at least we can't hear them as well as we would like.
That comment brought to mind conversations I've had with audience members about performances. I think the audience many times has a better understanding about the shape, quality, and the ultimate success of a performance.
As a performer I've found that, especially in a large ensemble, there are too many variables for me to be a honest judge of the quality of the ensemble's performance. I'm thinking about tuning and blending with other instruments in what may, to an audience member, be an unimportant and unheard part of the piece. I may be thinking and concentrating on a tricky entrance to an interior line and never really hear the main melody soaring above my entrance. The conductor may have asked me to play a section louder than what I think it should be because he has a better understanding of balance from where he is standing. Because of the acoustics in a hall I may make what sounds to me like an early entrance for it to be perceived as an "on time" entrance by the audience.
My point is, that as a performer in a large ensemble sometimes we are the least able to judge the success of a performance.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-10-07 02:58
You have pushed my "on" button here, John.
There is an enormous difference, in my experience, between being a *producer* of music and a *consumer* of music.
If pushed to the limit, I would say that one of the things wrong in the world today is that music has become a consumer commodity, rather than an artistic experience. Look in the yellow pages under "music stores". What do you see? Sam Goody is NOT a "music store"!! Sam Goody is a place to buy recordings. But in the U.S. , at least, "music store" has become synonymous with "record store".
I do not understand people who go ga-ga over any given performance or performer (and I would include all genres of music in this statement). Sure, there are artists that I enjoy and esteem and will pay to hear. But to me, that is simply not why I care about music.
I care about music as something I DO, not something I watch (or listen to) someone else do. And that is the biggest way my experience is different than that of the audience. I would so very, very much rather DO IT than watch it.
As far as I am concerned, that's what makes me a musician. Maybe the only thing.
Susan
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Author: abc123
Date: 2006-10-07 03:13
How about the ideology performers do not love music as much as listeners, as they come to truly admire the music, where as many performers do not like listening.
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Author: myrnabs
Date: 2006-10-07 03:15
The audience can't see you laughing because the soloist fell asleep. But the director can :0|
About lighting for us women, we actually feel like the witch in the Wizard of OZ, "I'm Melting" and wearing black only makes it worse.
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Author: seafaris
Date: 2006-10-07 03:42
I don't know if I am just naive, but I have listened and have appreciated a variety of music for over 40 years. In the past 2 years I have taken up learning music and the clarinet, and play at least an hour a day. I am really into jazz and listening to as much as I can, recorded and live. This past summer my wife and I took in 2 jazz festivals and have become regulars at a local jazz club. From what I can see the musicians love to play, hang out to listen to others and seem to really appreciate the audience and fellow musicians. They all seem to have fun. I have been encouraged to practice and listen to as much variety as possible. I frequent a few good bulletin boards and most of the participants love to listen and appreciate other performers. These are active players, both pro and amateurs.
My experience in listening and playing in a jazz venue have been unless you have good monitors and your instruments are balanced properly you will not come close to hearing how you sound to the audience. Even in a perfect setting the acoustics of the room will have an effect on the sound.
....Jim
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Author: pzaur
Date: 2006-10-07 03:52
EuGeneSee -
"the bass clarinet player very smartly retrieved the bell immediatly after emitting a D Augmented Minor Note that marked the occasion."
That's awesome! I haven't laughed this hard at a posting in a long time!
I've never done anything, that I'm aware of that warrants public discussion, from on stage.
I never wish for this to happen, either!
-pat
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-10-07 14:21
Pat:
It took quite some time to enjoy the humor, however, as the band director really raked me over the coals then used me as an example of failure to properly assemble and/or maintain my equipment. I was somewhat of a pariah in the bandroom for the rest of the semester . . . I almost quit band over it.
Eu
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2006-10-07 20:04
I once felt like I was in an orchestra while being a member of the audience. The concert was the Orchestra Filarmonica Slovena conducted by Riccardo Muti in Ravenna, Italy. It was held in a large barn-like place and our seats were on risers to the side, almost even with the woodwinds. At first I thought they were horrible seats, but the sound was quite good, I could watch the woodwinds closely, and see Muti's every gesture almost from the player's point of view.
I was able to experience some of what the players were even though I was an audience member. The feeling of being a part of the performance was so intense that I had all I could do to keep from standing up when Muti signaled for the woodwinds to stand after one of the pieces!
Those of us sitting there were treated to seeing Muti's dirty looks at the violins when they weren't quite what he had hoped for. Although we were apparently sitting in the cheap seats, I think we got a much richer experience as audience members.
Another similar situation was a series of concerts my wife and I played in at a large cathedral. The audience was invited to sit around us on the floor if they wanted. Even though we played in a large space, the fact there were people quite close to us, made the chamber music we played be real "chamber music"
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2006-10-12 03:01
In my opinion most music can only be enjoyed fully as a performer/conductor. Someone who plays a part in the performance has truly experienced the music on a special level.
I think most chamber music was written with this in mind... the performers need to feel that experiencing the music without an audience is just as incredible as with an audience. I've played many gigs with woodwind quintet, for example, where the people around are just socializing and getting drunk.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2006-10-12 09:33
ohsuzan - I am the same as you. I enjoy playing but don't always enjoy listening. Some call me selfish for it but playing and creating is simply a much better experience, it's more involved.
For me, the thing I am looking at a lot of the time is how I am going to sound to the audience. I work a lot on sound and clarity in terms of articulation so the audience hears it clear as a bell.
I hope the audience doesn't notice this, rather they just enjoy what they are hearing.
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-10-13 06:59
The biggest thing for me (and this is a truly big thing) is that I have far more of those sumptuous "chill and goosebump" moments on-stage than off. It's what I live for!
-Randy
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Author: awm34
Date: 2006-10-14 17:21
I've found that I listen much less since I took up playing (2002) despite having a high-end stereo system.
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Author: Markus Wenninger
Date: 2006-10-15 13:37
I couldn´t care less about the audience, especially whílst performing - besides, there´s too much to be exacted correctly, so there´s not much memory space left for wondering about the listeners. To my view, it´ll improve the quality of the performance if the performers/interpreters have an attentive listening experience, & it always helps a performance when we find a prior recording of what we´re going to play ourselves, be it by contrast or role-model. I find it amusing that a problem might be to blöend in harmoniously w/ the other instruments - for us as a posttonal ensemble, we all look up in concern if a homophoneous intonation should happen, most often accompanied by a sneer of "oh how beautiful you played that!" & the guilty party hurrying to correct it, that is, tilt the intonation etc a bit, so it´ll sound well...Anyway, this music of the 20ieth & 21st century is still so exotic there´s no other choice but to rely on the scarce recordings, so we´re always on the outlook after concerts, to buy some CDs to listen to, after all this is not the 1000th Mozart concerto again & again.
/As for the women melting under the lights: It´d spoil the concert experience, it really would, if the clothes were choosen for their practical use; we usually have to stick to the "modernist" uniform of black shirt & trousers, so it´s a huge relief to see a woman bringing in some colour by scarves or else. We did once a concert when I also had to put on heavy makeup, according to an African war mask, & I could relate to the girls swearing as they redid theirs.../The status of "perfection" is really different to large degree in posttonal music, but there´s no question that the relation of "mistake/correct play" is not at all erased, so the audience is quite puzzled usually, when it beholds us smirking about something gone wrong, which they miss most of the times - the answer generally is "Oh, I thought it should have to be like that, it´s New Music, isn´t it?!", which is very irritating for us in return.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-10-15 14:26
Markus Wenninger wrote:
> I couldn´t care less about the audience, especially whílst
> performing
That's too bad ... I'm the guy in the audience, and if I figure out the ensemble is just playing for themselves, I'll walk out. I have better ways to waste my time than to sit back and watch a bunch of people pat each other on the back and tell each other how good they are and stroke each other's egos while they tell themselves how smart and advanced they are while I'm ignored. Why do you need an audience at all if you don't care about them?
"so the audience is quite puzzled usually, when it beholds us smirking about something gone wrong, which they miss most of the times - the answer generally is "Oh, I thought it should have to be like that, it´s New Music, isn´t it?!", which is very irritating for us in return."
Why would you care what the audience thinks and have it "irritate" you? You've kept them in the dark, smirked, and generally felt superior to them. Irritation seems so far out of character for what you've related ... condescension I could understand ...
As for a "post-tonal" uniform of black and black, I am reminded of a Saturday Night Live skit of many years ago ... "Now’s the time on Sprockets when we dance. "
I'm guessing you don't have much of an audience anyway.
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Author: bufclar
Date: 2006-10-15 15:27
"I couldn´t care less about the audience, especially whílst performing "
How could you not care about the audience? The only reason you perform is for an audience. Concert music is composed to be performed for an audience. The Audience is who pays you to be a performer. This is one of the most horrible statements I have ever read on this Board. I hope for your sake you realize how important audience members are and how much energy they can and do bring to live performances. My experience as a performer has always been that groups perform better when there is an audience. I think a live audience brings energy to the arena and can raise the level of performance of an ensemble. If you really don't care about an audience then maybe you should not be a performer because I assure you your fellow musicians and compsers deserve a better attitude and effort. I'm not sure about other orchestras but I know for a fact that the San Francisco Symphony makes all of their recordings from live performances because the ensemble reaches another level. The most important thing you can learn is it's not about you it's about the music.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2006-10-15 17:54
My wife and I perform at a "Healing Service" at our congregation every year. It is great that Deb and I get to do this. We have a selection of relatively simple, meditative music for Flute and Clarinet. We play for perhaps 15 minutes to set the tone of the service, when the clergy takes over.
The response is very positive - attendees say how wonderful it is and how it gets things going and sets a meditative tone.
This is all very exposed music, most of it very simple. Attacks, releases, and intonation are critical, but Deb and I have played together enough over the last couple of decades so that we do pretty well.
The congregants are relieved of stress.
I always come out drenched in sweat.
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-10-16 03:53
I can see one reason to pretend there's not an audience there and it has to do with stage fright. If you're too wrapped up in the music to not think about the audience you don't know the music well enough.
On the other hand, I often play funerals (the only gigs I don't charge for) and then it's all for the audience. When you play a simple hymn or other piece (the second movement of the Mozart is great...a beautiful combination of solace and hope) perfectly, with feeling and true emotion you can easily see the comfort you are providing to the mourning crowd. The touch you give to these strangers is what music is all about...sharing humanity. Funerals are also humbling, because it is one of the few times in a performer's life when the job is all about the audience and the music and nothing about the performer.
Also, think about this: without the audience there would be no professional musicians.
-Randy
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2006-10-16 14:07
Several posters have commented about getting more chills and thrills from performing than from listening. I cannot say this is true for me personally, but one thing is for sure.....I have to limit the over-the-top emotional responses while performing. There are times when the musical intensity is so great I have a hard time doing that, but if I don't, I find myself losing concentration on the music at hand and making mistakes. This is not to say I am a neutral emotional automaton on stage, but I just have to monitor the extremes.
These moments never seem to happen without an audience there, so I guess I am agreeing that the audience is important to me.
johng
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: seafaris
Date: 2006-10-16 14:29
I would think that any performer would enjoy playing more than listening. I do, but I sure end up at the end of the day listening to A LOT of music. How could you ever improve if you don't listen to other performers. I play jazz, but listen to most everything and learn something new every day. I do enjoy listening to live music more than recorded, but again at the end of the day recorded wins out. I have some sort of music on most of the time. The musicians I have seen sure seem to be having a great time performing. I would think that is do to self satisfaction and having an audience that appreciates them.
...Jim
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