 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2006-09-30 16:39
I have recently acquired a Leblanc Symphonie Model wood Bb clarinet, serial number 87XX and all of the keys, posts, and barrel, lower joint and bell rings are positively solid sterling silver. Does anyone know if this was a limited edition feature or have any type of information.
jmsa
Post Edited (2006-10-01 06:07)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-30 16:46
Is it all hallmarked?
That's pretty swish! If the keys aren't plated, then you'll never have to worry about the plating wearing out. But usually solid silver keys do get plated.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2006-09-30 17:02
Thanks for your response Chris. I did several tests and they are not plated. Definitely solid sterling silver keys. In the past I have contacted Mr. Sal Cardello who was a Leblanc expert and would have the proper information as to how many of these were made. However since he has retired I have been unable to contact him.
jmsa
Post Edited (2006-10-01 06:07)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-30 17:12
Most (recent) pro Leblancs I've seen with silver plated keys still have nickel plated pillars.
But if you have solid silver pillars, again these won't wear out like plated ones.
On old Howarth oboes with solid silver keys, the pillars were only silver plated nickel silver - and usually the lower F key pillar and lower trill pillar (above the top fingerplate) gets worn down - but the finish on solid silver keys can be brought up to a brilliant shine.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-09-30 18:29
I've overhauled many Leblanc "Symphonie Models" but never encountered one with a sterling silver keys. Lucky you! My Selmer "Omega Centered Tone" does have sterling silver keys. I didn't even realize this until I started an overhaul. Even register and thumb tubes are solid sterling silver.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2006-09-30 18:38
I took the clarinet to a flute expert this morning who is very familiar with solid sterling silver and he confirmed that all of the metal on the clarinet is in fact solid sterling silver. This must be a limited rare edition.
jmsa
Post Edited (2006-10-01 06:08)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-09-30 21:37
Vytas -
I played a pair of Centered Tone Omegas for several years. At least on mine, the interchangeable register tubes were brass, or at least had that color.
Selmer advertised that the instruments had "phosphor bronze bushings" (whatever that meant), and I remember a bronze color on the interior of the key tubes (for keys that rotated on rods) and the screw receptacles (for keys that rotated on pointed screws.
A repairman told me that phosphor bronze creates a self-lubricating patina, so in theory you never had to oil the keys on an Omega.
I had the A clarinet for over 20 years and never wore through any plating, but then I don't have corrosive sweat, and an A clarinet gets less use than a Bb.
I don't remember the ads touting solid silver keys, though of course Selmer could have customized the instrument that way.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-09-30 23:04
Isn't sterling silver too soft?
jmsa:Did you try bend one of keys?
What kind of test did you do?
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2006-09-30 23:26
Hi Joseph,
Are there "non-technical tests" for solid silver versus plate over and beyond the obvious one of looking for worn plating? What did you do to make the conclusion that it was solid silver?
You also mentioned having the horn examined by a flute repairer who knows the difference between solid silver and silver plate. Can you tell us what she or he was looking for?
Finally, are solid silver keys "softer" or more pliant? Is the "solid" silver alloyed with something else to make it harder?
George
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-10-01 00:17
Earlier this year I had a Penzel-Mueller "Artist Model" clarinet with solid sterling silver keys, instrument is now in the possession of another of our BB regulars. So such instruments do in fact exist. The keywork on the P-M was not soft, as I recall.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-10-01 00:26
You can tell if keys are unplated by looking at the soldered joints between the key pieces - silver solder (which has a small percentage of silver in it - from 20% to around 50%) is a slightly different colour to sterling silver (which is 92.5% silver) due to the other metals in the solder which tarnish at a different rate, and if these differences can't be seen then the lot has been plated.
An obvious test is to scrape the hidden underside part of a key (eg. under the RH F#/C# linkage arm) to see if the metal is a different colour under the plating, or not if it's solid silver.
As silver is also a good conductor of heat, you'll feel the part of the key you're holding onto get hot very quickly when replacing pads as well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2006-10-01 01:00
So far I did the scrape test. The metal was the same under the top layer. Next week I will contact Leblanc and find further information about this particular clarinet. I also will take it to a jeweler friend of mine so that he can perform the acid test to determine whether it is sterling silver or coin silver.
jmsa
Post Edited (2006-10-01 06:08)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-10-01 11:37
That looks much better now you've gilded the engraving!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-10-02 23:28
Ken,
My Selmer Omega doesn't have the interchangeable register tubes. The register tube looks the same as you find on the regular CT models (but not the early N-Series CTs). The register tube and all surroundings is solid sterling silver. All the interior of the key tubes is solid sterling silver. There's no bronze color found on this clarinet at all. My Selmer "Omega Centered Tone" is not a regular model. It doesn't have a double register vent. It looks like any regular CT. The difference is wood, solid silver keys and engraving on the bell and LJ. Have you read about or seen this model (without a double register vent) anywhere before? I wasn't aware about the silver keys until I started an overhaul. So I'm surprised as much as you are. I'll post the pics of the register tube and the interior of the key tubes later.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
ClarinetHeaven@aol.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-10-02 23:46
What keywork configuration is your Omega - is it standard 17/6 or a 19/7 (or anything in between)?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2006-10-03 03:38
wow never knew that omega's came out with a centered tone design... nice instrument
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-10-03 08:28
Unless all metal parts, including posts, are hallmarked, then I am interested in the conclusiveness or otherwise of these tests. I would treat all visual tests as pretty unreliable:
1. If you do a scrape test, and any silver plating is very thick, then how can you be sure you have scraped through the silver?
2. Certain cupro-nickel alloys, when freshly scraped or buffed, look so like the colour of silver that I doubt that any difference could be discerned until the alloy tarnishes differently from a control surface of known silver.
3. If the scraping was VERY deep, then I would still not trust a visual test, although I would trust a chemical reaction test for the presence of nickel. (Note that coper is in both cupro-nickel alloys AND sterling silver, so I doubt that you can trust a copper reaction test.
4. Was there that tell-tale discolouration of the silver-soldering that Chris mentioned? If not, then the the base metal could be either silver plated sterling silver, or silver plated something else. Even this test is not too conclusive, because the "silver-solder" is also a different alloy from cupro-nickel base metal, and may tarnish differently.
5. I wonder if a precise test of relative density would be fairly conclusive.
6. "I took the clarinet to a flute expert this morning who is very familiar with solid sterling silver and he confirmed that all of the metal on the clarinet is in fact solid sterling silver." How exactly? Did he carry out tests on every type of part, and if so, what tests?
7. Perhaps the most reliable test, to those used to the phenomenon, is the heat conduction test Chris mentions, but this is pretty inconclusive for small items such as posts.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-10-03 16:26
Vytas -
The standard Omega had the double register key. I've never seen one without it, so yours is certainly unusual. Also, the Omega was a super-Centered-Tone, issued when the CT was Selmer's top of the line model. All the Omegas I've seen are marked "Centered Tone."
The removable register vents on my Omegas had a hexagonal shape at the top to fit the special nut driver that came with the instrument. The vent screwed out, and its removability wasn't obvious.
At least when Selmer reintroduced the Omega as a mid-line US instrument, it had engraving on the bell and the bottom of the lower joint, though not as elaborate as the 1950s Omega. From the photos you posted, the engraving is the 1950s version.
Curiouser and curiouser.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-10-03 16:40
I remember seeing a Selmer USA Omega in th mid-'90s - pretty garish engraving on the bell, not at all like the one Vytas has which is done with taste.
Having seen that (and the bottom of the lower joint) I'm now toying with the idea of having my Series 9 set engraved in a similar manner (though obviosly without the 'Ω' on the bell).
Now, does this - Ω - look like a cross section of a flute body through a tonehole to you as well?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-10-03 16:42)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-10-03 16:45
> Now, does this - Ω - look like a cross section of a flute body through a
> tonehole to you as well?
That reminds me of the "playing too long..." thread. I wonder why. ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-10-03 16:50
Ben, as you're in the know, how is 'Basel' actually pronounced?
I thought it was pronounced 'Baal', but have heard many people say it as they see it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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