 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2006-09-30 12:20
I've been a professional clarinetist for 25 years and have exclusively studied in Europe. I have since 10 years a prestigious full time job in a major philharmonic orchestra playing clarinet and Eb-clarinet so I'm no newbie.
In Europe there is no, as far as I know any “standard methods” teaching embouchure. All that is from the very beginning taught on a strictly individual basis out from the student's individual possibilities. That's why I have always been so surprised when reading on this board that almost everybody in the US, sometimes without exceptions are taught one and only method, flat-and-pointed chin and flat cheeks. I have in earlier postings expressed criticism, not for the method in general that might work for some, but to teachers who exclusively impose this one-and-only method to every student. My question is WHY? One method can't possibly work for all, not even for a start so what are you up to?
I’m still trying to understand this flat-and-pointed thing. From what I read I certainly come to this conclusion: if you play with a double lip embouchure and maintain the lower lip’s position when putting the front teeth on the mouthpiece you’ll basically have it right!? This is by the way a method that was slowly abandoned in Europe some 30-40 years ago.
Am I right so far, despite my opinion in the earlier postings? I admit that I might have jumped to conclusions before, ok? I welcome inputs also from European clarinettists who might have some experience about this.
Alphie
Post Edited (2006-09-30 13:45)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-30 13:58
I was taught to play clarinet with a tight 'smile' embouchure (lips braced sideways in similar fashion as oboe embouchure) and hold the clarinet up at a similar angle as an oboe or soprano sax.
The majority of players I see usually have the clarinet held downwards and with an 'overbite' embouchure with a bunched chin, and breathe by lifting their top lip. I'll leave them to it as I know I'm not responsible.
One clarinet teacher I was talking about embouchures with showed me a prospectus with a load of clarinet players on the cover, and he laughed at them as they all had the same 'overbite' embouchure and the clarinets held downwards with the bells between their legs.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2006-09-30 14:21
Chris, all these other clarinettists you mention, are they misguided amateurs or professionals? If they are professionals I assume they have found a mouth position that works for them. Maybe they’re just ugly people. Isn’t the main thing that the sound is fine and that it works all the way? I can mention many players who have far from a picture perfect embouchure but sound excellent and have great careers. Isn’t that what counts?
Alphie
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-30 14:40
These are all amateurs. I've never seen any pros doing this, and it looks like they haven't seen any pros either!
But that's the county teachers' fault - most of them I know of don't play clarinet as their main instrument (and probably haven't studied it to any reasonable level either), and yet what they do is pass on their own bad habits to all their pupils.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ginny
Date: 2006-09-30 15:15
I only had a few teachers in California. Most didn't use the flat and pointed thing. Soda straw. Thin lower lip. The odd one was a fellow who seemed to say one thing one day and another another day. He had me having my lips go in opposite direction. He had some great students (not me) but I'm glad I didn't have my younger son study with him.
I think I'll go with the guy I started with last week. I could do what he asked easily and both my tone and intonation improved that day.
No one even asked for that little smile thing.
I am curious as to what factors would vary the individual's emboucher specifically?
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Author: FDF
Date: 2006-09-30 15:30
Alphie, how would you describe your embouchure?
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-09-30 15:38
When I allow my cheeks to bulge, my sound just spreads, and i have trouble making large intervals. I think that the problem is related to reducing the player's mouth and creating a free-flowing airstream.
Bob Phillips
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-09-30 15:57
Alphie,
dunno about the chin thing. My teacher just says "the sound will tell you" or "you'll hear it when it's right", although making suggestions in this or that direction. He'd correct me when the clarinet was hold too much downwards, he'd remind me not to puff the cheeks, he'd suggest a break if my lips started to fatigue-tremble. But the flat and pointed chin? I wouldn't know how to do it before a mirror, sans the clarinet, let alone with.
My teacher's teacher would say it'd be more important to find the reed/mouthpiece's sweet spot than maintaining a visually appealing posture, that music were about hearing, not seeing.
Personally I noticed that the oral cavity (ie the shape of the void in your mouth) has more an influence on the tone colour than how I purse my chin or whether I smile or frown while playing.
FWIW, I'm playing purely for my own pleasure. I'm a rounded-chin egoist, I know.
--
Ben
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-09-30 17:08
My high school band director was very fond of the pointy chin/smile thingy. He was a euphonium player. I think many cliches are promulgated by those who look for a "one size fits all" solution or those who have heard something from someone else without having any direct experience themselves or both.
Another of my favorites is "rolling" onto the "A" key. How do you roll a finger that has no such musculature???
........Paul Aviles
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2006-09-30 18:00
FDF, I would describe my embouchure’s “1st position” as nothing special at all. I try to look exactly the same as I do when not playing the clarinet. I don’t stretch, push or twist anything really. I only make sure that no air escapes. My bottom lip is already fairly thin so if anything I maybe should mush it up a bit. One teacher I had described embouchure that it should be like a chicken’s a--. That is the opposite of “smiley”. Take that piece of information for what it’s worth but it says a lot.
From “1st position” I would describe my embouchure as dynamic. Occasionally when playing in altissimo if there is time enough, I move the bottom teeth slightly downward on the reed where it’s thicker. This is for better projection and focus especially if the reed is on the soft side.
I can see two reasons to experiment with a little air in the cavity: For coloring the sound at a given musical moment and when playing loud in altissimo. When playing loud in altissimo it makes an air cushion that creates a “turbo” effect that can be very useful especially on Eb-clarinet. Like that you eliminate the risk of pinching. Correctly used you can strive for non press.
Alphie
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Author: FDF
Date: 2006-09-30 19:10
Alphie, I’m going to try some of what you do. However, I’ll look for a substitute for the image of the chicken. Ha! I’m a returning player currently working hard to regain an embouchure.
I played for years, when young, without any instruction on embouchure until I got to college. My tone was always reasonably good. Perhaps, someone along the way said that I shouldn’t puff up my cheeks, but not until college did I hear about a flat chin. Never heard about the “smiley” until reading this bboard. My first teacher was not a clarinetist, but didn’t pass off cliché’s as gospel.
Now, my big concerns are to not allow air to escape from around my mouthpiece (ala chicken ears), to have consistent intonation, and to be able to redevelop my altissimo. I’ll also try your moving teeth further down the reed tip.
Thanks for your response.
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-09-30 19:45
i agree with you that "one size does not fit all"
it would seem to me, however, that "systematic" teaching of embouchure does result in a higher number of good players. Here in NZ there are very few teachers who focus on embouchure, and very few who would have much of idea how to identify problems and decide which strategies/what advice to give to solve such problems. The result is that many students at University level (sorry guys) end their degrees still sounding worse than many US high school students.
In the US, on the other hand, a high proportion of students are producing excellent tones and control while still at High School. This does sometimes result, it's true, in mindless copying/imitation etc that could be detrimental to some students. Having seen both sides of the coin i prefer the US way.
btw
over the years i've encountered several different ways of describing embouchure, quite often different ways of describing things that produce a similar result (physically).
the "flat chin" concept i first encountered via Jack Bymer- and in my 5 years in the US never actually ever heard an American player/teacher utter the words "flat chin".
keep playing the good tunes
donald
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Author: calclar
Date: 2006-10-01 00:37
I agree with what Greg Smith said in another thread. There are so many semantics involved, I don't see how a truly informative discussion could take place about this subject matter. It's hard enough clearly defining terms in my private teaching studio let alone trying to read between the lines on any well intentioned bulletin board. Too much seems to be lost between the lines. JMO.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-10-01 13:57
I wonder whether anyone has really studied this scientifically, rather than from the point of view that "player X did Y so it must be good".
I recall seeing such a study of brass embouchures, but can't find it. Maybe someone else can point us to it.
Meanwhile, some words of wisdom can be found here: http://www.trombone.org/articles/library/outofthecase5-1.asp.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Caco185
Date: 2006-10-02 04:07
Has anyone ever tried the "oo" and smile method? Having the student say "oo" and smile with their lip slightly rolled over the bottom teeth?
Seems to work great for my students.
Dale Huggard
Clarinet Performance Major, Michigan
Buffet R-13 - Silver plated
Genussa Excellente
Spriggs Floating Rail Ligature
Vandoren V12 #4
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