 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2006-09-23 04:57
My "A" Clarinet sounds a bit stuffy on certain notes. With careful reed selection I can gererally avoid this problem but it still bugs me that the instrument doesn't seem to resonate like my Bb.
Two of the pads on the "A" are cork. The lh C#/G# and the D# trill key.
Could they be acting like accoustic tiles and killing the sound?
Any ideas?
Chris.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-09-23 05:06
A few other thoughts to consider:
1. Are you using the stock barrel that came with the clarinet?
A different style/bore size and/or taper can have a significant effect on the tuning/ resistance - especially the throat tones.
2. Are the pads venting enough? Pads set too low, or the wrong thickness, can cause stuffiness and result in a diffuse sound.
...GBK
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-23 11:26
No, cork pads don't deaden the sound.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-09-23 11:48
Cork pads don't deaden the sound. I have experience with most types of pads (bladder, leather, cork, sponge) and none of them deaden the sound. All have a different feel and sound.
Regarding the barrel, I never had a problem with a stock barrel deadening the sound or make it stuffy. I'd say it is the most likely pad ventilation problem, and also worth trying a slightly softer reed on the A clarinet. Harder reed will exagerate stufy notes a lot.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-09-23 12:20
Cork absolutely does NOT deaden the sound. In fact since the surface is flat (relatively speaking compared to bladder etc) and firmer than others, it gives you a tight seal (as long as it is working properly) for a bigger sound and perhaps even a bit of a reflective surface not unlike a resonator on a sax.
That having been said I beg to disagree with my esteemed colleague Clarnibass. The Valentino pads are VERY VERY soft around the edges and I have always encountered a mushier, less appealing trill (especially on the sidekeys) as well as a more covered sound on horns that are padded completely with Valentinos. The REVERSE effect is achieved using all Gortex pads on a horn (a much brighter sound).
Of course since you speak only of a few pads, I must agree with GBK in that there may be a completely different underlying cause for the stuffiness (given of course that "As" are more resistant to begin with).
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2006-09-23 13:56
Paul,
I very much agree wiht you regarding the Valentino pads. I had a student who recently had an overhaul done and she decided on Valentinos for the entire instrument after some arm twisting from the repair person. She was not very pleased when she got her instrument back as she now feels like the resonance has been sucked out of her instrument. I played the instrument myself and found precisely the same thing. The "life" in the sound was just not there. It's a shame she's just started with me and had this done before we ever met. I've seen/heard this happen a number of times in the past and I would most certainly have advised againist it.
On the other hand, I might disagree with you slightly on the gortex pads. I find that they require a little closer key height than a normal skin pad but I can get just as nice a cover on the sound.
My favorite pads are put out by JL Smith. The Lucien pads (yellow skin) in my opinion on the best pads on the market. The felt that they use is a wonderful combination of soft yet firm which gives a very flat surface to them. They are easy to seat, hold their shape for a number of years and the sound is just lovely, with a nice pop and ring in the sound but quiet as a mouse when covering keys. They feel great under the fingers with only the slightest amount of give and I highly recommend them. Mike Hammer in Philadelphia turned me on to these about 10 years ago and he's been using hem ever since. I'm fortunate to have such a great and careful technician as Mike to work on my instruments and I'm sure that doesn't hurt my high regard for these pads also.
Clark Fobes made mention of these pads a few years ago and I know they are what he prefers as well, for what it's worth.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-09-23 14:22
Paul, I have no experience at all with Valentino pads so have no opinion on them, so I'm not sure how you can disagree with me about them 
Aren't the Lucien pads from JL Smith the ones made by Music Center?
Edit: part of post deleted so not to mislead by accident.
Post Edited (2006-09-23 18:48)
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2006-09-23 14:52
Clarnibass, Clark is a good friend of mine and I'm certain that he uses the Lucien pads, at least on soprano instruments. Bass pads, I'm not sure what he uses.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2006-09-23 15:44
I've bought a couple of used clarinets with cork register key pads. Since I dislike the small slapping noise cork makes when I close the key, I replaced them with conventional double-skin bladder pads. (I can't defend my attitude toward that sound. It's a quiet little sound, not nearly as loud as the sound my saxophone keys make when they close; it probably isn't even audible from much more than two or three feet away--but for some reason, it drives me nuts.) Replacing these pads made no difference I could hear in the sound of the notes.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-09-23 23:35
As with saxophone resonator-pad discussions, people who ascribe changes in sound quality to the type of pad used are, IMO, barking up the wrong tree. By far the biggest contributors to hissing, stuffiness and/or poor intonation of specific notes are (in order of greatest contribution):
1) Insufficient pad opening height;
2) Poorly shaped tonehole (in which category we can sometimes include straight-walled, i.e. non-undercut toneholes);
3) Incorrectly sized and/or incorrectly placed toneholes.
I would attack those areas before spending time fooling with different pad types.
Post Edited (2006-09-25 11:35)
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2006-09-24 01:44
David,
While I will agree with your pecking order, what does one do after all of these things are corrected? I find a big difference on the quality of the sound according to the type/material of pads that are used.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2006-09-24 12:27
If Phurster's resistant and stuffy clarinet is a Buffet A made in the last twenty years, couldn't the problem be attributed to or aggravated by the length of the register tube?
As I recall the tube for this period of production is too long. I have not had mine adjusted, and recently played a friend of mine's horn (Chuck West): There was very little resistance throughout his horn, and articulation in the upper register was much easier. It played very much like any Bb clarinet.
Both of our horns are Brannenized, and the register tube was the primary difference in the setup of our instruments.
Just a thought, maybe the tech guru's could comment?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-09-25 02:34
Michael N,
May I ask how you would be able to tell the difference in sound from pad type alone? To do that, you would have to overhaul a clarinet using one type of pad, get it working perfectly, then somehow 'remember' the exact sound of that clarinet while taking it apart, repadding it with a different type of pad, re-assembling it and re-regulating it, and playing it --- then you'd have to compare it with the previous tonal quality of the same clarinet from ?? days ago! It's not possible. There are too many variables for you to conclusively determine the contribution of the pad type towards the sound of the clarinet. I base my assertion, not scientifically as I'd prefer to, but based on having overhauled maybe a couple of hundred clarinets of various sizes, using a few different types of pads (though mostly leather these days), and not being able to notice any particular distinctive tonal characteristic (across various brands, models and samples) of clarinets that I could confidently ascribe to the pad type. It's not an easy thing to test!
That said, I would be interested in reading about your observations and how you arrived at them. Details, please!
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2006-09-25 04:47
Thanks for the suggesions. The general consensus seems to be that they (cork pads) don't affect the sound. The reason I started to think that they might was after reading about some of the work that Peter Eaton had done making pads with some sort of shiny dome in the center (larger pads only).
The advertising I read seemed to suggest that this made a difference.
I will look at the ideas posted by GBK and others regarding pad venting as I think this might be the prime culprit on my instrument.
Thanks,
Chris
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-09-25 05:19
First of all I agree completely with David Spiegelthal about pads. The way to "somehow 'remember' the exact sound" is by recording. Actually, recording is the only way to make this test correct. If you test different pads by playing, then it is very easy to confuse how the pads feel with how they sound. Also, people who claim they can ignore this in their judging are not less likely to be confused by it, and the same for very high level players.
David Spiegelthal wrote:
"By far the biggest contributors to hissing, stuffiness and/or poor intonation of specific notes are (in order of greatest contribution):
1) Insufficient pad opening height;"
"I would attack those areas before spending time fooling with different pad heights."
Was your last word "heights" a typo?
Phurster wrote:
"The reason I started to think that they might was after reading about some of the work that Peter Eaton had done making pads with some sort of shiny dome in the center (larger pads only)."
I've never seen a maker claim pads (or anything) they make themsleves is not better than pads (or anything) they don't make themselves. Don't give much significance to advertisement, espeically when it is on the maker's website!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-09-25 11:35
clarnibass,
Thanks for pointing out my typo, I did mean "types" rather than "heights"! I went back and fixed my post.
Post Edited (2006-09-25 11:36)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-09-25 13:18
I agree with David and Clarnibass.
I would also suggest that cork pads over rough-edged tone holes could well produce leaks, which would provide a reluctant response and what could be labeled a "dead" sound. The fault would be not the pads, but the lack of attending to the tone hole edges, which is vital if cork pads are installed.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-25 14:15
Which is why if you're having cork pads fitted, have them done by someone that sorts out all the imperfections on all the tonehole bedplaces.
It's a pointless exercise fitting any pads to toneholes that aren't perfect.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-09-25 14:27
Chris P wrote: "It's a pointless exercise fitting any pads to toneholes that aren't perfect."
However, one of the advantages of leather pads is that they can conform to, and adequately seal, slightly wavy or rough tonehole surfaces better than other pad types.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2006-09-25 15:34
I have not noticed a problem with the Valentino pads. I have always liked the feel. They seem to seal great and have a nice long life. My repair tech always said that they are a bit more forgiving and adapt to the tonehole surface better than many of the other pads. It may be a case, as with everything else, of what you are used to.
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2006-09-25 16:16
David,
Thanks for the challenge! In answer to your question, I did exactly what you described. Repadded an instrument with all valentino pads and played it again. It is difficult to remember the sound and I agree with you on this point. Which is why I also took a couple of student instruments, 2 made of plastic, and then two greenlines and padded them differently, one with skin and cork pads the other with valentinos. Then I played them side by side and guess what?? BIG DIFFERENCE!!!!
I did all of this because I really like the way the Valentino pads seal, though I'm not a big fan of how squishy they feel under the fingers. I chose plastic and greenline because I figured that was as close as I could get to having two instruments that were as identical as possible. I can't think of a better way to do this.
So, for me, the proof was in the pudding, there IS a big difference with pad types. I agree with David in his above post that all of the other things should be checked first, however, in the end, the type of pad you use will make a difference on the sound and feel of the instrument.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-09-25 22:32
Mnorswor, you seem to like the Valentinos because they seal well. I am surprised you bring this up in the context of comparing the PERFORMANCE of pads.
Other pads seal well too, providing they are installed with somewhat more skill and care than what may be necessary for Valentinos. Perhaps you have limited experience of this phenomenon.
Is it possible that you were comparing a clarinet having Valentinos sealing well, with a clarinet having other pads, sealing not so well.
If so, you were not comparing pads. You were comparing a well-sealing instrument with a poorly sealing instrument.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-25 23:44
Avoid using the brown (fake cork) Valentino pads in any number higher than one on any instrument - they may appear to seat well if tested with a feeler gauge, but fail miserably on both suction and pressure testing as they're porous. I found this out the hard way by padding an oboe (Howarth S20) with them. Never again - but the white ('Greenback') Valentinos worked well on wooden oboes, but the customers and teachers didn't like the look of them, so it was back to natural cork pads.
Only place I've found a use for them is water key corks - I've put one on the water key on my Yamaha bari sax and so far it's doing well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2006-09-26 00:13
The brown Valentinos that I have seen were for water keys (brass, bari sax) from the info I saw. Do they make others?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-09-26 01:25
A lot of repair folks around the States are using the white "squishy" Valentino pads over the whole horn. If installed with glue, they can be adjusted with a hair dryer. This makes overhauls much easier (less time, more money in the pocket). Trying very hard not to be completely cynical, the pads do seal VERY well on both compression and suction. My beef is with:
1) the less distinct sound you get on trills
2) the lessened volume and brightness you get out of the horn in general
3) the COMPLETELY unforgiving nature of the material (no give at ALL) where one needs it, on the top pad of the bottom joint. Without a little give there, the adjustment for the "one and one" Bb becomes a nightmare. Please note that cork lovers NEVER use cork on this cup !!!
........Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2006-09-26 02:01)
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2006-09-26 02:37
Gordon,
Thanks for the reply. I do like the way that they (Valentinos) seal but I should have clarified and said that I find them to have a longer life than their skin counterparts and they are more forgiving on less than perfectly flat tone hole surfaces.
I travel an awful lot and so I was looking for a solution with a synthetic pad that would give me the sound that I want and stand up to the test of being travelled around, knocked around, etc. I thought that the Valentino pads would have done this for me but I do not care for the sound of the instrument with these pads installed.
I do not, as you suggest, have lack of experience with good sealing instruments. Mike Hammer has done my work for years and it was with him that I tried this experiment. Both instruments on his gauge sealed below a 3 (his gauge being the type that pushes air through the instrument, not a suction based method). My current instruments seal at 1/4 (one quarter) and they are all done with Lucien skin pads and cork pads.
I'm quite fussy about a great many things, the sealing qualities of an instrument being at the top of the list. However, after an instrument does seal well, I again state that I find the type of pads used to affect the sound.If you'll ask Mike Hammer, Marc Jacobi or Tim Clark (the 3 most highly regarded repairmen in the USA, IMHO) all 3 of them have stated the same thing.
For what it's worth... I'll stop posting to this thread as I feel my opinion has been stated. Others may have come to different conclusions and I respect their opinions highly. Ultimately, however, we must do for ourselves what we feel is best for us and for our instruments.
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2006-09-26 05:40
Michael,
Thank you for sharing with us your wisdom about pads. I have always suspected that different pads influence the way an instrument sounds and feels. But now I am certain that not all pads are equal. Your thoughtful experimentation, combined with your professional experience will help save me a great deal of frustration trying to find the best pad for my particular needs.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-09-26 06:22
I still think it is very easy to confuse the way the pads feel with the way they sound. I didn't make this experiment about pads, but from other similar type of experiments I made, most people would confuse these two issues, and those that are more confident that they won't, are just as likely to do it, if not more.
It is very hard to seperate these two issues, so imho the better way to do the experiment is to take two identical (as possible) clarinets, and pad them with different pads. Have a lot of players (I'd say at least 20 if possible or maybe more, realy as many as possible) play on each clarinet and record them. The mouthpiece, reed and playing conditions don't even have to be similar for the players, just kept identical for each player when playing on both clarinets. Then have many clarinet players try to guess.
This is the best I can come up with because a double blind test is impossible for this purpose because the players can easily feel what pads they have by playing.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-26 10:34
"My beef is with: 3) the COMPLETELY unforgiving nature of the material (no give at ALL) where one needs it, on the top pad of the bottom joint. Without a little give there, the adjustment for the "one and one" Bb becomes a nightmare. Please note that cork lovers NEVER use cork on this cup !!!"
I use cork on this cup, though I use felt or ultrasuede on the connection between joints so there is some give there.
And with the articulated G# above the C vent (if fitted), the regulation is more precise with cork pads between both these cups.
But I've never had any trouble with the long Bb when using cork pads almost throughout. But I do offer leather pads on certain keys if that's what customers want.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-09-26 11:26
Gordon wrote addressing Michael Norsworthy....
Other pads seal well too, providing they are installed with somewhat more skill and care than what may be necessary for Valentinos. Perhaps you have limited experience of this phenomenon.
.... Mr Norsworthy is an excellent and highly skilled performer who would easily stand up next to the top international soloists. Unsurprisingly he has gone to some lengths to play very fine instruments that have been customised and maintained to the highest level. Given this, your comment could sound a tad condescending (though i'm sure you didn't intend this). Michael seems to have gone to some great length to confirm his suspicion (one i share, though wouldn't claim i could prove) re Valentino pads, and while this test is not "scientifically rigorous" a considerable amount of respect should be accorded to his opinion.
donald
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-09-26 12:46
Thanks, Donald, for providing some background. I did not know the writer, so just took the post at face value. I did not mean to be condescending.
I just read an earlier post by Michael. He seems to prefer the very pads I use most of the time.
I actually see very good reasons why different pads would sound different. If you used cling film (without pads) over tone holes, it would seal, but would be a poor 'container' for the vibration within the air column. A tone hole covered in such a way would behave at least in part, the same as an open hole, in that there could be oscillation of the air up and down the tone hole, flapping the cling film up and down as it did. Yet the "pad" would pass a magnehelic test. If all tone holes were thus covered, I rather doubt that the low E would be playable with any sort of decent sound.
So any pad that has any flexibility or elasticity in its surface at all, would behave just a little like the cling film.
Every pad material must have characteristics, which quite apart from the sealing function, must lie somewhere between the cling film and a rigid closing of the tone hole, say by a timber plug.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2006-09-26 12:55
No matter what the pad the key element is always to have a perfect seal which allows correct resistance through the entire scale...
However, when doing very long operas I tend to find the cork pads once soaked with moisture do not perform very well and can be very hard to get dry especially at moment or time when you have a solo that is important...I tend to prefer the Valentino pads in this regard due to the fact they are impervious to moisture.
David Dow
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-26 12:57
Have pewter plugs ever been used on clarinets as they have on some old flutes?
Unless all the tolerances in the mechanism are tight and the pewter plugs are well fitted, then and only then will pewter plugs work really well. But more often than not they work best when there's a certain amount of slop - the plugs find their seal better when the keys can move around due to wear in the mechanism.
But imagine the extra weight all that pewter would add.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-09-27 22:48
I guess some light polymers would be excellent substitutes for perter these days. But having that necessary 'play' makes the mechanismso clunky.
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