 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-08-30 17:32
I know exactly what an overhaul is and what is done.
But what I want to find out is what YOU (and ONLY you) think an overhaul is, and what is done, and what you expect to pay for an overhaul on a Bb clarinet.
I could make it easier and do a multiple choice, so pick a number (the descriptions are just a brief summary of the work done):
1 - An overhaul is checking the clarinet to see if everything is working properly and adjusting anything that needs adjusting, and only takes around 30 minutes.
2 - An overhaul is checking the clarinet and replacing a few bits of cork and a couple of pads by removing a few keys that need new corks or pads, and takes between 1 and 2 hours maximum.
3 - An overhaul is taking the clarinet apart, cleaning it all, oiling the bore, replacing anything that needs replacing (pads, corks and springs where needed), oiling the keywork and assembling, and takes around 4-5 hours.
4 - An overhaul is taking the clarinet apart, removing all the corks and pads, cleaning all the keys and body, oiling the bore, replacing all the corks and pads with new ones, swaging keywork where needed, oiling and assembling, and takes betwen 8-12 hours.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-08-30 17:34)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-08-30 18:31
Well it's either 4 or "a digitally retouched photograph of Katie Couric."
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-08-30 18:31
HAHAHA! That's an 'overall'!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-08-30 19:56
As a customer I'd expect 4.
As a repairer I'd do 4 too.
A used car salesperson would say 3.
The online auction seller would say 2 but sets the reserve price according to 3.
--
Ben
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-08-30 20:33
> *** I know exactly what an overhaul is and what is done. *** <
Don't be so sure. An overhaul means different things to different people.
3 - is a 'play condition overhaul'
4 - is just a 'Repad Plus' not an overhaul. IMO
An experienced professional technician might charge you $500.00 or more for an overhaul but he spends 4-5 days working on your horn and when you get it back it will play and work better than any new horn fresh from the factory. So, in this case you get what you paid for. Every technician has his own understanding and standards what an overhaul actually is. It took more than 40 hours for the giant/genius in the repair business Mr. Hans Moennig to overhaul/set up a clarinet to the standards of great players such as McLane, Bonade, McGinnis Harold Wright and Robert Marcellus etc. It takes 30-40 hours for me. It takes 8-12 hours for Chris P. and 1-5 hours for a New Zealand guy. This clearly shows different understanding towards an overhaul. The term 'overhaul' is pretty meaningless unless it is detailed.
A complete overhaul should consist of:
(not necessarily in this order)
> Removing of the old finish and oils from the bore
> Cleaning of wooden body by soaking in the special oil-soap
> Cleaning of entire wooden body using soft brushes and dishwashing liquid
> Thorough cleaning or all hinge rods and hinge rod tubing
> Thorough cleaning of all pivot screws
> Tenon chip (only small chips) repair (as needed)
> Restoring the logos (no crayons here)
> Oil immersion of the wood portions
> Sealing the Bore
> Refinishing the bore
> Waxing and polishing the outside of the wooden body.
> All new tenon corks
> All new key corks
> All new pads
> All new springs (as needed)
> Sealing the tenon corks
> Re-surfacing tone holes (as needed)
> Securing loose posts
> Swedging loose keys
> Easing tight keys
> Aligning/adjusting keywork
> Fixing loose key posts
> Key buffing, polishing
> Oiling Keys
> Adjusting spring tension
> Play test
> Voicing (by adjusting key heights, undercutting tone holes etc.)
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: am0032
Date: 2006-08-30 21:06
I'm with Vytas on this one. So many people confuse the general repad with an overhaul. Some people end up paying overhaul price for repad work. They simply charge/pay more because they call it an overhaul.
Adam
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2006-08-30 21:07
Remove bad sound and install good sound.
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-08-30 21:35
I did say "the descriptions are just a brief summary of the work done".
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-08-30 23:12
How long ANY work takes depends on the state of the instrument, the way it was made, and especially on the experience, expertise and equipment that the technician uses. As just one very simple example, the dental micro-motor unit I use, with well over changes many different 5 minute tasks into 5 - 20 second jobs.
For me, an overhaul means different things to different customers, and different instruments. If the customer is not so interested in polishing keys, and tarting up logos, then I don't include it. I do not oil-immerse unless a customer requests it, because I regard the process as somewhat controversial in my climate. I do not attend to problems with the bore surface if they do not exist. I definitely attend to pad venting, but do not mess with undercutting unless well discussed with the customer; people who mess with this have often solved a problem and created a lot more problems.
I don't do things that are not needed. I certainly attend to all that IS needed, in order to establish a very high standard of function and reliability for the next many years. That includes all the other items in Vytas's list.
To me, an overhaul includes dealing with anything that could prevent the instrument from operating reliable well into the future. That typically includes dealing with many manufacturing deficiencies.
I think Vytas's comments casting aspersions on my workmanship have no place at all in this forum and should be removed. As far as I am aware, Vytas has never seen my workmanship. I doubt he has even communicated with any of my customers. Certainly not enough to make comments about my work standards.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-08-30 23:55
Gordon wrote:
> **** "I think Vytas's comments casting aspersions on my workmanship have no place at all in this forum and should be removed. As far as I am aware, Vytas has never seen my workmanship. I doubt he has even communicated with any of my customers. Certainly not enough to make comments about my work standards". **** <
What comments about your work? I haven't made any! All I said was: "It takes 8-12 hours for Chris P. and 1-5 hours for a New Zealand guy."
It's not about your or anybody's skill! It's about 'What An Overhaul Is'
You said it yourself you need 1-5 hours to overhaul a clarinet. Is this not true?
Gordon wrote:
"If all other aspects of a clarinet were in excellent condition to last reliably well into the future except for the pads - perhaps with thin, brittle membranes as has been common on top pro new - then the 'overhaul' needed - in this case a repad ONLY - to get the clarinet into top condition, could indeed take only an hour, with the speed, efficiency, and precision that experience brings".
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=168245&t=168173
Gordon wrote:
"How long?... "The overhaul process, depending on the instrument and condition, takes me from 2 to 5 hours. 5 hours would be an instrument in very poor condition.”
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=129717&t=129566
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2006-08-31 03:19)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-08-31 00:12
Vytas wrote "It takes 30-40 hours for me. It takes 8-12 hours for Chris P. and 1-5 hours for a New Zealand guy."
30-40 hours, times a reasonable hourly rates for this expertise, plus the cost of the pads, springs, etc, comes to a pretty large figure! In order to stay in business I, like I guess other technicians, have had to become far more time-effective in the way I work.
We also use modern materials that are far superior to anything Hans Moennig had. Moennig would also have been able to work a lot faster if he had equipment now available.
"1-5 hours for a New Zealand guy"
That is a ridiculous statement in this context. We must not get bogged down in the semantics of this word "overhaul".
To restore ("overhaul') a badly neglected clarinet takes me several hours.
To restore ("overhaul') a well-cared-for, well-manufactured, barely worn clarinet involving little more than replacement of soft materials, and setting up, could be as little as 2 or 3 hours, and the price would reflect that. I would not ever associate the term "overhaul" with 1 hour of work.
Often a customer comes in and says his instrument needs an "overhaul". It turns out that it needs 30 minutes adjustment.
The word has little meaning until it is clearly defined in every different situation it is being used. If a customer uses the word, then I stop proceedings until his meaning is clarified.
Vytas, you quoted my "1 - 5 hours" in a context which avoided doing this, but clearly was intended to cast aspersions on my work, as commented on by an observer. That looked like very deliberate ambiguity, and as such was unfair.
Post Edited (2006-08-31 03:01)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-08-31 03:04
>OK, what's a "rebuild"?<
As with "overhaul" and "service", it should be taken to have no meaning until that meaning is clearlyt defined for the particular situation.
Otherwise it could be anything from securing a key by tightening a screw, to re-making all the keywork (and body!) from scratch.
Using these undefined terms can only lead to miscommunication and misunderstanding.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-08-31 03:46
But in that context, the GENERAL word "overhaul" did not mean your highly specified definition. Yes, the 5 hours did relate to your defined term, but the 1 hour did NOT.
You are regularly doing this - quoting something out of context to be personally nasty - I cannot think of a better word, because to re-introduce the original context to clarify would be repetitive, and boring to everybody. It reminds me of the nasty stuff that breaks marriages.
So how about leaving stuff in different threads in those threads, where they have their original context.
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-08-31 03:52
A 30-40 hour overhaul sounds a bit strange to me....that would mean, apart from parts, labor alone would cost a fortune. That would mean that a $500 overhaul would pay the tech $13-$17 an hour, if there were no materials charges. Realistically materials have to be in the range of $50-$100 (including pads, springs, and overhead such as renting, heating, and lighting the space, tools, and gas for the torch), which would lower the rate substantially more ($10-$15 an hour. An overhaul is an exacting and highly technical process (as well as a true art) and I've never met a master craftsman that I would trust my instrument to that charges that little per hour.
-Randy
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Author: b.roke
Date: 2006-08-31 06:03
i had an overhaul done on my couesnon monopole Bb several months ago. as i stated in a thread at the time, communication before, during and after the process was very important to me, especially as it was being done quite a distance from where i live.
before work commenced i was informed in writing of the scope of the work needed after an initial inspection. i was also given an estimate of the overall cost. there was also a repair to a tenon involved and this was appraised and quoted on seperately.
during the work i was advised of the progress and asked if i wanted the keys polished.
at the end of the work i received communication by email and phone. i also received a thoroughly detailed account.
the work was more extensive than at first quoted for and came in above the quote, but i had already been informed of that and also that not all the labour time was charged for.
so this is what an overhaul is to me - the customer receiving and acting upon the advice of the tech, while the tech consults and assertains the needs and wishes of the customer so that they can be met in the best and most efficient way. and that this continues throughout the process.
steadfastness stands higher than any success
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Author: b.roke
Date: 2006-08-31 06:13
insted of the word "quote" above, the word "estimate" should have been used
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2006-08-31 06:16
It's my understanding that the week-long overhauls aren't made up of consistent 8-hour shifts on the horn, but rather incremental work, some of which needs to sit overnight.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-08-31 06:48
The only "sitting" time necessary for clarinets, at least in the way I work, is to wait for epoxy resins to set (and they are not used much), and to accommodate interruptions to my time from people, from maintenance of equipment, and self-induced to retain sanity.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-08-31 07:08
I don't think I do anything that requires the clarinet to sit overnight either.
Tenon corks and key corks are glued on with Evo-Stik which is ready to work with after being stuck down, pads are put in with shellac which means when they're seated they too are ready to go. Speaker tubes and thumb bushes are usually put in with shellac, though threaded speaker tubes are put in with beeswax.
So the only sitting around time is waiting for Evo-Stik to go off (on tenon corks and key corks), and that's 15 mins - in that time I've done something else instead of sitting around twiddling my thumbs, like polishing up all the screws and burnishing the heads - then stick on the tenon corks after that.
On key corks, I coat the various corks needed (including ultrasuede, rubco, etc) with Evo-Stik and put them aside to go off while I degrease the keys where the corks are to be fitted, apply Evo-Stik to these surfaces then start sticking the corks on in the order I've glued them up in so giving the adhesive enough time for it to go off.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-08-31 11:47
As an aside:
Where you use ultrasuede, have you tried using Kraus's synthetic felt. I'm very impressed with it. It doesn't have the squishiness/springiness that ultrasuede has, so I've given up using ultrasuede.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-08-31 12:40
> *** It's my understanding that the week-long overhauls aren't made up of consistent 8-hour shifts on the horn, but rather incremental work, some of which needs to sit overnight. *** <
The week long overhaul is an overhaul-restoration and usually performed on more than 50 years old clarinets (Selmer CT, BT etc.). This type of overhaul IS made up of consistent 8-hour shifts on the horn. Some work like oiling needs to sit overnight, but it's not counted or considered to be a shift.
I personally do not use any epoxy resins or Evo-Stik so, basically there's no sitting around time at all.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2006-08-31 12:46
Chris:
How do you oil the bore and not let the instrument sit overnight?
Matt
> Chris P wrote:
> I don't think I do anything that requires the clarinet to sit overnight either.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-08-31 12:59
I oil the bore, let it stand for a few minutes and then wipe off the excess oil rather than leaving it overnight.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-08-31 14:21
Chris, I think I must apply Evostik more thinly than you do, because typically leave it only a couple of minutes.
Either way, as you say, if the technician is well organised, other work is done during this time.
To clarify, Evostik is a contact adhesive, an exceptionally good one, but not so easy to obtain in USA. Vytas, you say you don't use Evostik, but I suppose you do use some other brand of contact adhesive for tenon corks? I guess Moennig probably used shellac dissolved in alcohol for all corks. For me, that is far too slow and less effective than Evostik. Superglue is not too bad for key corks, but for me, holding it on for 10-20 seconds is far too slow.
On clarinets I use epoxy resins, but I think only for tenon grafting work on certain body materials, and for the length of the 35 mm pins, when these are used for reinforcing when re-attaching broken-off plastic tenons, which I do at times, as a reliable, cheaper alternative to grafting.
BTW, I often fit sterling silver tenon caps on the centre (usually) tenon, when old instruments (or any others) have a sloppy fit of the timber here. When it (or an alternative) is needed, that is also part of an overhaul for me, but not mentioned in the above list.
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2006-08-31 14:53
Chris:
My experience with oiling my clarinets is that it takes an overnight to confirm that there is sufficient oil in the bore. The difference between a couple hours soak & an overnight soak can be substantial. I always re-oil the next day if I see any dry spots, as indicated by a duller matte to the bore in the dry area. The next day I swab out the excess if the bore is a consistent sheen.
Thoughts?
caveat: I am a hobbyist repair tech who only works on his own instruments.
MOO,
Matt
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-08-31 14:57
I let the Evo-Stik go off for a full 15 mins for tenon corks before sticking them on, and in that time I've straightened, cleaned up and polished (or burnished) a whole set of screws, though it's anywhere between 5 and 10 mins on key corks - depending on the amount of keys to degrease and glue up before sticking the corks on.
I use old bari sax reeds with the tips cut square as glue spreaders for doing corks with to get a thin, even layer of glue, but on the tenon recesses I do put a fair amount of Evo-Stik on them, applied straight from the nozzle to the tenon recess while rotating the joint to get total coverage.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-08-31 17:56
Chris P. wrote: "I let the Evo-Stik go off for a full 15 mins for tenon corks before sticking them on"
I also use Evo-Stik and if I waited 15 minutes it wouldn't even stick! Maybe it is the weather but I don't think I ever waited more 3 mintues, usually less than 2 minutes, a lot of times no more than 1 minute. Only been a few months since I started using Evo-Stik but no cork fell yet and showed any problems.
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Author: mtague
Date: 2006-08-31 18:09
4 - Though I will listen to recommendations on pads. Sometimes they don't all need to be replaced and sometimes a different type is recommended. I don't expect to pay for for the materials cost of pads not installed at that point either.
I too, am unsure of what a rebuild/restoration consists of. I brought in a bass clarinet (old leblanc) to a local repair person and I requested only a basic "in playable condition" service so I could test the it out before deciding if I wanted have more work done on it, or if it even needed more work. I'm not sure how far a rebuild/restoration can go.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-08-31 19:49
"Sometimes they don't all need to be replaced and sometimes a different type is recommended. I don't expect to pay for for the materials cost of pads not installed at that point either."
On an overhaul, you should expect to have ALL the pads replaced as part of the work (regardless if some are newly installed) - if not, then you're not getting an overhaul at all, but a major service which is only replacing anything that needs replacing. And not getting your money's worth.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2006-08-31 20:23
To be honest, I love my clarinet more than my car, but when talking about service, overhaul, ... I pretty much have the same attitude.
I find myself a brand and a garage (repair tech) that I like and have him (or her) decide what is needed and when.
Is it called an overhaul ? a small checkup ? Actually I want my clarinet to be in good shape, and I'm happy if it is returned to me afterwards and I can feel/hear and see that it was treated well.
I don't count the number of replaced corks, or pads (nor the money I paid for it), but try to sense it's freshness.
Maybe if I ever get it back in bad shape and have to pay a fortune I'll get into more detail, but until then it's a customer/repairer relation based upon a lot of trust.
Post Edited (2006-08-31 20:24)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-08-31 21:03
> *** "On an overhaul, you should expect to have ALL the pads replaced as part of the work (regardless if some are newly installed) - if not, then you're not getting an overhaul at all, but a major service which is only replacing anything that needs replacing. And not getting your money's worth. *** <
Good point Chris!
An overhaul is a major repair done once in about ten years. 'A play condition service' (to avoid confusion I'll never cal it a play condition overhaul again) is a 1-2 hour service. It's like a tune up of your car – nothing major.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2006-08-31 23:49)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-09-01 02:05
Evostik:
On most surfaces, I apply Evostik to the surface directly from the user-friendly, very thin nozzle, which I have made thinner still by inserting a short length of 1 mm Teflon tubing. I do not use the spreader nozzle that comes with some tubes. I don't use a cap. The Teflon tube virtually eliminates evaporation.
Then I spread it thinly on the surface, using the best spreaders on this planet... my little finger for keys and my ring finger for tenons, which I keep oil-free for the purpose. I don't use my index finger because it is often a little oily. Yes, I may absorb traces of toluene, but I am also breathing it at gas stations, and absorbing dioxin which is naturally occurring in the soil. :-)
Typically it dries right for joining parts in 1 - 2 minutes.
Some more absorbent materials, e.g. synthetic leather, need it a little thicker, because it soaks in.
I pre-treat (i.e. seal) felt with a thixotropic (margarine consistency) contact adhesive, which does not soak through the felt.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-01 06:28
This is how I'd class (and put the correct terms to) the four levels of work I outlined in my opening topic:
1 - A PLAY-TEST or ASSESSMENT is checking the clarinet to see if everything is working properly and adjusting anything that needs adjusting, and only takes around 30 minutes.
Usually done on new instruments or used ones that have been serviced or overhauled, but haven't been played for a while.
2 - A CHECKOVER is checking the clarinet and replacing a few bits of cork and a couple of pads by removing a few keys that need new corks or pads, and takes between 1 and 2 hours maximum.
Usually done on instruments that have come in due to them not playing right, but the customer doesn't want to spend too much (if anything at all!) - this is the minimum amount of work needed doing to get the clarinet playing.
3 - A SERVICE is taking the clarinet apart, cleaning it all, oiling the bore, replacing anything that needs replacing (pads, corks and springs where needed), oiling the keywork and assembling, and takes around 4-5 hours.
Usually done between 1-2 years depending on the amount of use, though recommended it should be done every year to make sure everything is well oiled and regulated. Instrument should look and play like new unless it has nickel plate or unplated nickel keys that have tarnished.
4 - An OVERHAUL is taking the clarinet apart, removing all the corks and pads, cleaning all the keys and body, oiling the bore, replacing all the corks and pads with new ones, swaging keywork where needed, oiling and assembling, and takes betwen 8-12 hours.
Usually done much later in the instrument's life when more than 8 or so pads need changing, tenon corks are worn out and the mechanism sounds like a typewriter. Instrument should come back looking and playing like new, if not better than it was when it was new.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-09-02 15:57
This thread only proves that even technicians have very different understanding what an overhaul actually is. No wonder customers are confused. Like I said earlier;
"The term 'overhaul' is pretty meaningless unless it is detailed".
> **** "Instrument should come back looking and playing like new, if not better than it was when it was new". **** <
Most pro repair technicians deal basically with the mechanical clarinet condition only and it indeed takes between 8-12 hours. I do agree that a clarinet should come back PLAYING like new, if not better than it was when it was new. Oiling the bore only and cleaning the outside with the oily rag will not make a clarinet LOOK like new or better. An overhaul should include work on the wood. Reworking the wood body also should bring it back to its original specification as close as possible. That's why removing (by soaking etc.) all this old dirt, calcium deposits, old oil, loose fibers, rough wood and even old stain and finish etc. is very important step during the overhaul. This procedure will put the instrument back in tune more than any other process. Cleaning with a rag and round brush (for tone holes) won't achieve that. The inside of each tone hole is burnished using a soft leather strap and a very fine polishing compound. You get a smooth surface that will respond freely.
Removal of old oils from the wood and replacing it with natural oils is also very important. Most of old clarinets have been oiled with mineral oils. IMO a mineral oil shouldn't be used on wooden clarinets. I do use my own oil formulation for this purpose. Specially formulated bore oil is available from The Doctor's Products. http://www.doctorsprod.com/BoreDr.html Oiling, sealing and refinishing the bore will make it dimensionally more stable.
Some customers may want the clarinet all shiny and new-looking, while others may prefer the well-worn look. Well worn-look doesn't mean that all this dirt in the tone holes and in the bore should be left untouched.
I do not want or seek to turn this into a contest 'Who is better technician'. It's my personal opinion on what an overhaul actually is. Doing less or more work on overhaul doesn't make you better or worse. Quality and skill is entirely different issue.
Complete overhaul/restoration
> All new pads
> All new key corks
> All new tenon corks
> All new springs (as needed)
Wood
> Removing of the old finish and oils from the bore
> Cleaning of wooden body by soaking in the special oil-soap
> Cleaning of entire wooden body using soft brushes and dishwashing liquid
> Tenon chip repair (as needed) (no more that one)
> Restoring the logos (no crayons here)
> 3-day oil treatment of the body, bore and tone holes.
> Sealing the Bore
> Refinishing the bore
> Waxing and polishing the outside of the wooden body.
> Sealing the tenon corks
> Re-surfacing tone holes (as needed)
> Burnishing tone holes
> Polishing tone holes
Keywork
> Thorough cleaning or all hinge rods and hinge rod tubing
> Thorough cleaning of all pivot screws
> Securing loose posts
> Swedging loose keys
> Easing tight keys
> Aligning/adjusting keywork
> Fixing loose key posts
> Key buffing, polishing
> Oiling Keys
> Adjusting spring tension
> Voicing (by adjusting key heights, undercutting tone holes etc.)
> Play test
Cuisleannach wrote:
**** A 30-40 hour overhaul sounds a bit strange to me....that would mean, apart from parts, labor alone would cost a fortune. That would mean that a $500 overhaul would pay the tech $13-$17 an hour, if there were no materials charges”. **** <
The first overhaul list has nothing to do with me. I actually do more than on this list and charge less. It's not about money for me anyway.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2006-09-02 17:37)
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Author: Bill
Date: 2006-09-02 16:37
I remember being in Steve Fowler's shop (Pasadena, MD; what a great guy) and seeing joints suspended over a plastic container of oil (?). The joint had a sort of pole (stick, whatever) through it, and the stick rested on notches at either end of this plastic "bath." My impression was that the joints spent some time rehydrating in this manner.
Steve's shop was so cool. I also spent several hours in Jack Silver's (Bethesda, MD) basement - a clarinet museum. I feel lucky to have been in these two places.
Bill.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-03 01:31
Oil treatment of the kind described by Vytas is something yet to hit the UK - I've only been reading about it in the last couple of years, and I don't know anyone in the UK that offers it.
From your list, the things that are rarely done in an overhaul (if done at all) here in the UK are:
> Removing of the old finish and oils from the bore
> Cleaning of wooden body by soaking in the special oil-soap
> Cleaning of entire wooden body using soft brushes and dishwashing liquid
> 3-day oil treatment of the body, bore and tone holes.
> Sealing the Bore
> Refinishing the bore
> Burnishing tone holes
> Polishing tone holes
Though we do oil the bore, it's not done as intensively as this - and I wonder how many repiarers in the US do all this as well. But there are a lot of repairers that still don't even do most of the basics, or have even mastered the basics.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-09-03 03:21
Chris,
Besides these two:
> Removing of the old finish and oils from the bore
> Refinishing the bore
Most of pro shops do it.
You're right, you can find many repairers in the US who haven't even mastered the basics.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-09-03 06:03
Vytas, what you write here is very interesting. If you can write a bit more about how you do and what equipment and materials you use for some of those things I will appreciate it very much, so I can learn and practice these techniques.
The things that I'm interested in are -
> Removing of the old finish and oils from the bore - how?
> Cleaning of wooden body by soaking in the special oil-soap - what is this special oil-soap?
> Tenon chip repair (as needed) (no more that one) - what do you mean by "no more than one"?
> Restoring the logos (no crayons here) - how? what materials do you use?
> Sealing the Bore - what does it mean?
> Refinishing the bore - how?
> Waxing and polishing the outside of the wooden body - with what and how?
> Sealing the tenon corks - how is that different than just putting new tenon corks?
> Re-surfacing tone holes (as needed) - what is this?
> Burnishing tone holes - what is this?
> Polishing tone holes - what is this?
Vytas, I'm sure you can understand, since both of us have a non-English first language, it is hard for me to understand a lot of these tehcnical terms in English. That's part of the reason I don't understand a lot of the 'repair talks' on the forums. Although I can find most words in the dictionary, they usually get a different meaning in the context. I hope I can find an English-Hebrew engineer dictionary, if such a things even exists. I am hoping you can explain this clearly since you understand how it is for a non-English speaker.
Thanks very much and best wishes!
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-09-03 12:30
"You get a smooth surface that will respond freely."
Yes, most of us assume that to be true. However part of me does not totally accept it, because:
1. Unless I am mistaken, some racing yachts go faster - less friction with the water - if the surface is actually microscopically rough. It is to do with "Boundary Layers", and turbulence.
2. Sharks, which need to be fast fro survival, have rough skin.
3. Likewise, golf balls have less friction with the air if they are not smooth, but dimpled.
4. Some speed skaters wear clothing that has rough stitching on the legs, in strange places, in order to go faster.
5. I have heard that some oboe players, either do or used to drag steel wool through their oboes to roughen the surface slighlty to improve the sound.
6. Some technicians line saxophone tone hole walls with rough sand-paper to improve the tone.
I would like a REAL expert in the acoustic design of clarinets, especially having formal knowledge of the fluid flow sciences and their relevance, to comment on this issue. I acknowldge that I have no formal expertise in this area.
I definitely clean out tone holes, if there is any build-up of material, ANY time I have a key removed, "overhaul" or not. However until I know definitely that polished walls are beneficial, I am hesitant to spend time polishing them.
An incidental possible advantage of non-polished walls is that condensed moisture tends to spread over the surface rather than bead. When moisture beads, it is more inclined to flow into tone holes, or sit there making bubbling noises during play.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-03 12:57
"5. I have heard that some oboe players, either do or used to drag steel wool through their oboes to roughen the surface slighlty to improve the sound."
A recent Marigaux 901 oboe I saw which was hailed as a winner in terms of it's playability had a very rouh bore in comparison to Marigaux oboes of around 10 years ago where the bore was like a mirror.
"6. Some technicians line saxophone tone hole walls with rough sand-paper to improve the tone."
And Selmer offer an internally threaded crook tenon which they call the 'booster' http://www.selmer.fr/html/english/sax/perso/booster.htm
When I started at Howarth, one of the workers setting out the holes on a top joint accidentally threaded some toneholes with the pillar tap (it's a separate machine used for tapping threads, and all done without a guide - now it's all done using a CNC milling machine), but I'd gone round and filled the threads in and recut the toneholes before finishing it - would have been interesting to see what difference this would have made in comparison to one with the normal straight toneholes.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-09-03 12:59
Gordon wrote: "I would like a REAL expert in the acoustic design of clarinets, especially having formal knowledge of the fluid flow sciences and their relevance, to comment on this issue. I acknowldge that I have no formal expertise in this area."
I might be able to get that information. If you can please write in as easy English as possible what exactly would you like me to ask it will help me (you can email me that instead of posting it here if you perfer). Some of those terms in English I don't understand.
Although the person I can ask is not an expert specifically on clarinet acoustics, she has a master degree in physics, mathematics, music education, compostion, music theory, and musicology. She is now a professor of acoustics, after she did a doctor degree and professor degree specifically in acoustics and instruments acoustics already many years ago (she is over 80 years old), and for many years she is the head of the acoustics research department here, which I understand is one of the main three in the world. She is also an expert on instruments and their history (also from being a collector of instruments from all over the world, she built the instrument museum in our university).
Would the opinion of this person be interesting for you?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-09-03 16:09
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
> 4. Some speed skaters wear clothing that has rough stitching
> on the legs, in strange places, in order to go faster.
Just look at the skis or fuselage of water aircraft - they have that "discontinuity" on the underside so that the aircraft isn't literally sucked to the water surface when the aircraft is about to lift off. The hump is created to disrupt the laminar flow of water, in a sense like you have a perforation along a stamp's edges where you don't want your tearing force evenly distributed among a large surface.
I simply do not know whether or not an undisturbed and laminar flow of air inside a wind instrument is desired or not. The toneholes create turbulences anyway, so I don't believe the effect of a shiny or rough bore is - ceteris paribus - noticeable.
--
Ben
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-09-03 16:12
> *** "You get a smooth surface that will respond freely."
Yes, most of us assume that to be true. However part of me does not totally accept it....": *** <
It's not exactly what I'm talking about. My goal here is to smooth-out the 'undercut part' of the tone hole. If you look closely to the undercut portion (especially on newer instruments) of the tone hole you'll notice sharp edges at bore side and in the place where the undercut ends. The 4 lowest tone holes have very wide undercut. I guess it is impossible for manufacturer perfectly to undercut a tone hole in this particular location. An undercutting tool leaves sharp edges and rough bumps there. This part of the undercutting has been fixed by hand on the older pro instruments in the past. I do not find this 'fix' on the newer entry and standard professional level clarinets anymore. The ideal undercut tone hole shape should look like a bell and not like this; cylinder, sharp edge, wider part, bump, sharp edge. I remove these sharp edges and bumps (found only on the lowest tone holes) created by undercutting tool. So this is what I'm talking about.
This is not 'smooth and rough' surface issue at all.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2006-09-03 19:50)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-09-03 17:15
tictactux wrote:
> I simply do not know whether or not an undisturbed and laminar
> flow of air inside a wind instrument is desired or not.
The velocity of air within the bore is very slow (the only reason there's any flow at all is because vibrating the reed is a 'lossy' phenomena) so surface effects (laminar flow) would not be a 1st order phenomena. Clarinets make their sound via standing waves, which are created via resonance in the tube. The flow is only due to the small amount of makeup air.
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-09-04 00:01
(Continuing from Mark)
There is a single determinant for whether flow is laminar or turbulent, called the Reynolds number. You can see this in a flow through an open trough. As water goes slowly through the trough (independent of the sides of the trough, a bit of dye injected at a point will continue down this same point with respect to the walls. This is laminar flow. As the speed increases, the water will flow freely unless distrubed, at which point eddies are introduced. This is termed transitional flow and it is very dependent on local perturbations as to whether or not the flow is turbulent. Past a certain speed, the Reynolds number of the fluid passes a certain threshold where the flow has no choice but to eddy in an unpredictable pattern. This is called turbulent flow.
The Reynolds number depends directly on the fluid density, speed, and geometric length of the flow and inversely with viscosity of the fluid. In the case of the clarinet (and any air flow much less than supersonic flow) the density and viscosity can be assumed to be constant (1.23 kg/m^3 and 1.73 x 10^-5 N*s/m^2 respectively). The geometric length of the flow (the diameter of the clarinet, 1.49 x10^-2 m) can also be taken as constant, since in the case of a clarinet the changes are not big enough to consider. It takes me 40 s to exhaust my lungs (~4 L, or 4 x 10^-3 m^3) while playing a clarion C. This means that my total flux is 1.0 x 10^-4 m^3/s, and the speed of my airstream is flux/clarinet area = 0.5747 m/s. The Reynolds number for these conditions is roughly 608. Transitional airflow starts at about an RN of 2000, and turbulent airflow takes place above 3000. Simply put it would be very difficult to induce non-laminar flow at this speed, and if anything could do it it would be the tone holes and not the surface characteristics.
Since the flow is inversely proportional to area, the same would not hold where air actually enters the instrument, where the air, even if it wasn't pummeled by the reed, would have a turbulent flow.
-Randy
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-09-04 01:49
There seem several issues being discussed now.
1. Smoothness of bore, effect on sound....etc. As has been said, the speed of flow of air along the bore is so minute, that we can ignore this; the Reynolds number is far too low.
2. Smoothness of bore, effect on sound....etc. The bore defines the SHAPE of the air column. Does the slight lack of definition of the boundaries for a rough bore significantly alter the tone?
3. Unless I am wrong, sound gets from the standing wave to our ears via the air oscillating in and out of the opening at the open end of the air column, i.e. usually through a tone hole. The oscillation initiates the TRAVELLING wave that gets to our ears. It is fast, and tone holes are relatively narrow, and there are edges to negotiate, so the laminar/transitional/turbulent flow issue would seem to be highly relevant.
3A: Do we actually WANT the smoothest possible flow of air negotiating tone holes? Surely poorer flow would create resistance of some sort. Don't some players LIKE resistance? I stop here because I am way out of my depth.
3B: We can talk about the smoothness (polishedness) of the surface, and whether a rough surface actually facilitates laminar flow. In my last post I was addressing this issue, casting aspersions on whether the ideal was polished or not.
3C: Vytas has highlighted another factor, the edges that are negotiated by the air moving in and out of the tone hole. (This overlaps recent discussion of pads with rounded/sharp edges.) around So, re "3", back to the substance of Vytas's last post...
i. I have always found it interesting that the exit to the windway of a recorder is chamfered, but there are always flat surfaces on this highly critical chamfer. That is the way it has to be. This suggests to me that there may actually be BENEFITS in including ridges where there are changes to the nature of fluid flow.
ii. Some excellent sounding clarinets have no undercutting; there are quite sharp edges at the bottom of the tone holes. They were designed like that. It would possibly wreck them to undercut the tone holes, ridges or not.
Surely this suggests that the roundedness/ridgedness of the undercutting may actually not be as important as an intuitive ideal may suggest. Indeed, as with the recorder, edges may actually be "better", whatever that means.
Far more questions than answers, and I suggest taking little heed of dogmatism unless it comes from a REAL acoustic expert. (Benade with a simplified vocab?)
Clarnibass, why don't you send the whole thread to your well educated aquaintance. (But one problem with acoustics experts is that they communicate in terminology that few of us understand. I include myself here. They probably think I do too - LOL!)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-09-04 02:05
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
> Far more questions than answers, and I suggest taking little
> heed of dogmatism unless it comes from a REAL acoustic expert.
No acoustics expert worth their salt would EVER tell you "what happens when"; rather, they would hypothesize what might happen. I've been privy to lectures by some of the best flow engineers the world, along with Nobel laureates in physics, trying to solve "real" flow problems, and even with today's supercomputers the answers are in the realm of probability only.
Flow engineers take their data from empirical studies and try to formulate mathematical predictions, and then spend most of their lifetimes trying to refine the math. The formulae we use here are accurate in the gross sense (1st order effect), but not in the finer sense (2nd and beyond), and when it comes to edge flow, 2nd and further order effects (separation, eddy, choking, pseudo-chaotic) predominate.
Navier-Stokes is horrid at prediction because of the multiplicity of answers, but good at explaining "after the fact" when the possibilities collapse due to empirical studies.
Which all comes back to the wind instrument makers experimenting to find the different tradeoffs. Science only guides the experiments in particular directions - our measuments and formulae are not yet good enough to come to definite conclusions.
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-09-04 02:20
I hope you don't mean me as being "dogmatic". I wish I did know what went on on the inside of a clarinet. I do know, though, that there are some explanations that are proffered that sound good but aren't grounded in fact. One of these is the argument of turbulent versus non-turbulent flow as it relates to the roughness or smoothness of the sidewall of the instrument. My intent was to show that this argument lacks grounding in physics. I know that the air column in a clarinet vibrates a little past the lowest open tone hole, but I can't say as much as I'd like about how the arrangement and spacing of tone holes affects the tone.
The only dogmatic views I hold are
1) if there was such a thing as a perfect clarinet, someone would be making right now.
2) if someone does know how to make the perfect clarinet, it is certainly not me
-Randy
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-09-04 05:25
Fair comment, Mark.
My comment was rather flippant, and certainly was not addressed to Cuisleannach.
I do suspect that there are SOME people who know a fair bit about how these issues all inter-relate - what is significant and what is not - but I suspect we don't see much of them in this forum.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-09-04 05:29
"Clarnibass, why don't you send the whole thread to your well educated aquaintance. (But one problem with acoustics experts is that they communicate in terminology that few of us understand. I include myself here. They probably think I do too - LOL!)"
Unfortunately, for too many reasons, I can't send her the thread and she won't look at it. I can't promise anything, but I can try to meet her and speak with her about it.
About the terminology, you are probably right, especially since she will explain it in Hebrew (and I'm pretty sure even I will not understand that in Hebrew).
Vytas wrote: "The ideal undercut tone hole shape should look like a bell and not like this"
In this article: Clark Fobes clarinet tuning & voicing article
Clark Fobes explains just the opposite. He recommends to have the sharp angle between the undercut section and straight tone hole section. He even makes specific claims that making it bell shaped will make high overtones (which people asociate with a bright sound) louder, and that the note's response is less imediate. I have no way of knowing whether what Clark Fobes writes there is true or not. It sounds like he experimented a lot and found this.
Post Edited (2006-09-04 05:45)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-04 06:58
The only way to find out anything for definite is to try it out with a working model rather than speculate with charts and formulae.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-09-04 13:13
Chris P wrote:
> The only way to find out anything for definite is to try it out
> with a working model rather than speculate with charts and
> formulae.
That's somewhat counterproductive ...
As I mentioned above, those 'charts & formulae' guide one during empirical observations. If a designer did not keep accurate records and let those results guide them then they would have no right to be called a designer ...
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-09-05 06:45
Mark wrote:
>> As I mentioned above, those 'charts & formulae' guide one during empirical observations. If a designer did not keep accurate records and let those results guide them then they would have no right to be called a designer ...
This is my point exactly. Back in the days before aerodynamics became a science people pasted together anything that they think would fly and tested them the only way they knew how...by putting them in the air. A lot of them died. Now we have advanced theories on how to make a wing and we use those theories to design wings (and we've gotten pretty darn good at this) so we know how it should react once it gets to the wind tunnel. Then we actually put it into a wind tunnel to see how it behaves.
Just because it is science doesn't mean it doesn't have real-world applicability. The ideal design process marries theoretical thought and practical engineering. I dwell on the theory because it's what I'm good at, but the testing is just as important. At least no one (to my knowledge) has ever had to pay the ultimate price while play-testing a new clarinet design.
-Randy
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-09-05 14:20
(Disclaimer - I am a designer of the Forte' Bb and C clarinets)
The most important modulators of the air flow - or wave- starts at the top with the player, mouthpiece, reed, and ligature affecting the vibration of the reed. Some mouthpiece makers have indicated that the texture of the interior of the mouthpiece affects tone but I have no data on this element. The barrel too has a significant effect on the air column. The most important factor in the body of the clarinet is the shape, diameter of the bore, and the tone hole - including placement (longitudinal distance and relationship to other tone holes in radial placement).
Since the tone hole/holes is the exit point of the air column there are several factors affecting tone hole configuration - primarily chimney height and then shape, which includes radial diameter, conformity to roundness, and air flow characteristics. The air flow characteristics can include smoothness of the tone hole and the flow path from the bore which is modulated by the shape and degree of undercutting.
In our experience the smoothness of the bore has very little effect on tone from a matte (240 grit emery cloth sanding) finish to highly polished finish.
Smoothness of the interior of the tone hole and undercutting do have an effect. Perfect levelness of the top of the tone hole contacting the pad has an effect due to pad sealing characteristics. These subjective assessments are backed up by our own interpretation of spectrograph frequency spectrum analysis measurements. We have optimized our type of tone hole undercutting with the corresponding frequency patterns desired but have not done extensive studies on other approaches and profiles of undercutting. Many of our profiles of instrument design have been mathematically modeled but most still require extensive practical testing and tweaking.
L. Omar Henderson
Post Edited (2006-09-05 14:33)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-09-08 17:10
Clarnibass wrote:
> ****In this article: Clark Fobes clarinet tuning & voicing article Clark Fobes explains just the opposite. He recommends to have the sharp angle between the undercut section and straight tone hole section. He even makes specific claims that making it bell shaped will make high overtones (which people asociate with a bright sound) louder, and that the note's response is less imediate. I have no way of knowing whether what Clark Fobes writes there is true or not. It sounds like he experimented a lot and found this. **** <
http://www.clarkwfobes.com/Tuning%20article/Tuning%20the%20Clarinet%20for%20PS.htm
Mr. Forbes provides very good basic information on clarinet tuning. It seems that Mr. Forbes contradicts himself as far as "maintaining an abrupt edge at the beginning of the cone" is concern.
The Example 5 (This) - clearly shows removal of this abrupt edge at the beginning of the cone.
The same Example 5 (Not) - suggests that you do not want create an abrupt edge on the both sides of undercutting.
The whole article is full of suggestions to get rid of the abrupt edges:
> 1. "I will cut the "wings" around the tone hole and this improves the sound remarkably". (See Example 7).
2. "With the cork in place, file the abrupt ends smooth so they blend with the arc of the hole circumference".
3. "Maintain a smooth shape that tapers into the circumference of the tone hole".
4. "Cork pads are often left with rather abrupt edges, which cause turbulence as the air from the tone hole passes them. After installing a cork pad, I remove the key and round the edges of the pad" <
With tools manufactures use for undercutting you get these basic shapes: cone, bell and dome. It doesn't matter what shape you use to undercut, let's say E/B, tone hole the total volume should be the same for this particular tone hole and for the same bore design. But this is only the basic undercutting. Further tone holes can be undercut to the north, south or any direction to correct certain tuning problems etc. After this type of undercutting the shape is neither cone, dome nor bell.
Clarinet bell is a huge tone hole for E/B. Selmer used "cone" shape for bells on older big bore instruments. The rest seem to have bells with the bell shape. LOL. The bell shape doesn't make E/B sound 'bright and thin' in comparison with the other notes. So, I would argue that this shape also encourages upper overtones which we hear as "bright' resulting in a loss of center and immediacy of response.???
Clarnibass,
I have no "tuning the clarinet" on my overhaul list above.
"Tuning" and "voicing" is not the same! You are comparing apples and oranges here.
My point was to get rid of obstacles and abrupt edges from the tone hole to get a smooth without obstacles surface that will respond freely. Tuning the clarinet is entirely different story.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-09-08 17:49
Vytas wrote:
> The Example 5 (This) - clearly shows removal of this abrupt
> edge at the beginning of the cone.
No, this example intends to show a change in the angle.
Example 6 clearly shows the intended result.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-09-08 18:37
Mark,
I don't think you understand or ever done this.
If you file the way Forbes suggested in the example 5, > (it can be seen that the intent is to shorten the tube of the tone hole rather than to enlarge the diameter of the undercut area at the bore) <, you will never get the shape that is in the example 6
Undercut without enlarging the diameter of the undercut area at the bore means to file without touching the edge at the bore. If you undercut exactly as Forbes suggests (in the example 5) you would create one more angle just above the fist one and you'll get three angles now. There's no way, you'll get the shape that is in the Example 6.
Sorry, I do not want to argue on this issue anymore. It has nothing to do with this thread "What is an overhaul?" anyway. It became something like pointing finger at each other game.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-09-08 18:53
I think Fobes (or whoever drew those sketches) is just not very good at drawing. His words are clear: "it can be seen that the intent is to shorten the tube of the tone hole rather than to enlarge the diameter of the undercut area at the bore. As you cut, try to maintain an abrupt edge at the beginning of the "cone" (Example. 6). If this edge becomes round or blunt the tone is attenuated less abruptly, resulting in a loss of center and immediacy of response."
This clearly explains he recommends leaving a sharp angle and not rounding it to a bell shape. Examples 5 and 6 are just pretty bad drawings. I understand that Fobes recommends to cut/file a straight line from the bottom of the undercut area (not enlarging it), to a point a little above the top of the undercut area, changing the angle without rounding it.
Vytas, in your examples that you quote from the article in the post a few above, they have nothing to do with the undercut area. They are talking about the upper round area of the tone hole which he agrees should be smooth.
"I do not want to argue on this issue anymore. It has nothing to do with this thread "What is an overhaul?" anyway. It became something like pointing finger at each other game."
But it turned into an interesting subject. A lot of threads drift to different subjects. Pretty normal when people speak imo. But, no one is arguing about anything. People just bring differnet points of view, trying to "find the truth".
Post Edited (2006-09-08 19:05)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-08 19:12
And this is how all conversations develop - has anyone here or anywhere ever managed to spend a whole evening on the same topic without going off on a tangent?
I noticed on old Howarth and Louis oboes the undercutting on some toneholes, mainly the low C# and Eb toneholes is very much hollow (concave), and pretty extensive leaving very little depth to the tonehole sides - and even risk of the bedplace collapsing into the hollowed out undercut as there's very little wood left. But if it has the desired effect then that's all that matters.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-09-08 20:00
Vytas wrote:
> I don't think you understand or ever done this.
Yes, I have. Not on wood, but on metal.
Clark is no rookie, BTW. I understand his intent easily.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-09-09 00:26
Vytas wrote
"..."Tuning" and "voicing" is not the same! You are comparing apples and oranges here..."
Seeing you treat these terms as completely separate, I would like a precise definition of the terms as YOU see them. I am sure some other readers would also appreciate this clarification. Also, are your meanings technical ones that are precisely the same in the minds of all experts in this area?
"...My point was to get rid of obstacles and abrupt edges from the tone hole to get a smooth without obstacles surface that will respond freely. Tuning the clarinet is entirely different story...."
Are you saying that undercutting a tone hole has has zero effect on the pitch of the notes that are largely concerned with that tone hole. (That is completely contrary to my experience.)
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-09-09 03:12
<<Sorry, I do not want to argue on this issue anymore. It has nothing to do with this thread "What is an overhaul?" anyway. It became something like pointing finger at each other game.>>
As a brief aside, it seems interesting to me to lay down an argument in a post and then say you don't want to argue the issue any more.
-Randy
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-09-09 19:03
Cuisleannach wrote:
> **** "I know that the air column in a clarinet vibrates a little past the lowest open tone hole, but I can't say as much as I'd like about how the arrangement and spacing of tone holes affects the tone". **** <
The last open tone hole on the clarinet is the bell. So indeed the air column vibrates a little past the lowest open tone hole, (except when the bell becomes the exit point of the air column for notes E/B), because there's no air column or a clarinet there. LOL
Cuisleannach wrote:
> **** "As a brief aside, it seems interesting to me to lay down an argument in a post and then say you don't want to argue the issue any more". **** <
What's the point in arguing with the person when this person has no idea what he is talking about? I have nothing to say when even technician cannot tell "Tuning" from "Voicing" or acoustical knowledge is at the point of 0? So let me put my head into the sand and ignore some posters on this BBoard for a while. LOL
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-09-09 23:09
Sorry, that should have been the FIRST open tone hole. Even I'm not perfect all the time.
What I meant about the second quote is that it doesn't seem fair to me to lay down a challenge:
<<If you file the way Forbes suggested in the example 5, > (it can be seen that the intent is to shorten the tube of the tone hole rather than to enlarge the diameter of the undercut area at the bore) <, you will never get the shape that is in the example 6
Undercut without enlarging the diameter of the undercut area at the bore means to file without touching the edge at the bore. If you undercut exactly as Forbes suggests (in the example 5) you would create one more angle just above the fist one and you'll get three angles now. There's no way, you'll get the shape that is in the Example 6. >>
and then say that you will not grace any responses to your opinion with your attention. To be fair, what you say is certainly worthy of discussion. However, you throw the gauntlet down and then run away. If you truly don't want to discuss something anymore perrhaps it would be best not to offer an opinion and simply call us to task for getting off-topic.
Lastly, from what I've heard from Mark and Gordon they appear to be conscientious folks who appear to know what they are talking about. I can't say that I agree with them 100% of the time but I'm always interested in what they have to say. I can certainly understand why it might be necessary to clarify terms like "voicing" and "tuning" that might be a bit ambiguous. This is certainly the case in the world of recorders where if you ask 10 technicians (if you can find them) what they mean by "voicing" you'll likely get 10 different answers. A good discussion should never resort to ad hominem attacks to make a point (such as <<I have nothing to say when even technician cannot tell "Tuning" from "Voicing" or acoustical knowledge is at the point of 0?>>) particularly if they are unsubstantiated.
-Randy
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2006-09-10 00:14
May I offer the following?
I believe tuning refers specifically to pitch or frequency of the tone and voicing refers to the characteristic quality or colour of the tone. To me, voicing not only refers to brightness or darkness of the tone, but, can also refer to how narrow (focused) or broad (unfocused or spread out) a tone can be.
I also believe that voicing can have an affect on response or how quickly a tone is produced with minimal amount of effort. From my readings on this BB, it appears that everything affects response: mouthpiece, reed, ligature, barrel, shape and diameter of bore, amount and type of undercutting, the quality and type of pad material that is used and how well seated or the sealing qualities of each pad (especially at the very top of the upper body section).
I also believe that two clarinets can be in tune, i.e., be at exactly the same pitch (frequency), but, because of voicing (colour of sound coupled with degree of being narrowly focused or spread out) will not be able to blend, i.e., sound harmoniously together.
I know that my opinions have nothing to do with "What Is An Overhaul?", but, IMHO, an overhaul can affect pitch, voicing and response of an instrument.
This is a very interesting thread and I hope that it continues.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-09-10 00:31
Vytas, I asked you two clear and valid questions, in good faith, to clear up any misunderstanding in what you wrote, i.e. to clarify communication. It surely is common knowledge that words mean different things to different people.
I find your refusal to clarify, but to mock and make a personal attack instead, to be appalling behaviour, with no place at all in any discussion forum of any sort, web or live. The average 5 year old communicates better.
If that is your attitude, then why, exactly, are you here?
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The Clarinet Pages
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