 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: diz
Date: 2006-05-31 06:04
A famous Australian musician, conductor and educator (Richard Gill) came out in the press attacking the West Australian Government's music program for high schools:
he sledges Western Australia's new secondary music curriculum, which he describes as "the most confusing and bemusing document on music education I have read in 43 years as a practising teacher". While he acknowledges that the new curriculum may be an improvement on WA's old Tertiary Entrance Examination, Gill can't understand why it is written "in the sort of deconstructionist curriculum language that frustrates teachers and confuses students".
So I am going for the jugular; I am going in boots-and-all to attack this document because I am sick to death of reading meaningless pap when it involves music. Music teachers must take a stand against this emasculation of our subject. We are fast becoming the land of the bland in which all things are equal and there is no more distinction or distinctiveness.
Full version can be seen here
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20876,19255934-7583,00.html
I like to hear what you music teachers think about how your country runs it's secondary music programs. Have they become PC and bland?
diz - Sydney
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2006-05-31 06:09)
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Author: allencole
Date: 2006-05-31 07:08
Here in the US, I'm not sure that we can really blame the powers that be for our Music Ed. malaise. My feeling is that in instrumental music, both students and parents enter the process with a consumer mindset, rather than a participant mindset. There is much expectation that the class will entertain them, when in fact it's supposed to be training them to entertain others.
Couple this with the fact that music faculty have to compete with so many other possible elective classes, and the fact that any performing group is essential held prisoner by its slower members.
I've even seen it happen with the guitar--which I have held up to my students as a paradigm of self-sufficiency and self-motivation. Schools now offer classes, and now even guitar students are spoon-fed, dumbed-down and generally rocked to sleep.
Teachers are actually trying to combat this. I'm seeing more class time set aside for performing solos, rehearsing small groups, etc., and I think it's a very postive thing. Tri-M clubs also help to combine students from different branches of music ed. into joint efforts.
People get what they ask for, and generally they ask for something ridiculously easy.
Allen Cole
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Author: Markus Wenninger
Date: 2006-05-31 07:22
Thank you for this wonderfully polemic article, Diz. The author seems to lament the olden times, when examined pupil came up with a set of reliable abilities printable down in black on white, ready to function well in a preset machinery of cultural productivity. There may be a generation gap (Fiedler´s) here, nonwithstanding that curricula usually tend to be vague and evasive, and aren´t the place for a list of capabilities qualifiable empirically after some years of instruction. D´accord, such a list should at least be outlined somewhat down the page of a curriculum. And such a paper is no place at all for the elucidation of notion like "musical idea" and "composition", since those very terms themselves are shaken in their fundaments. Musical education isn´t the prepping of human beings "to the way we were back the in tonal times". Let me add that the author hasn´t got a clue about deconstruction and fuzzy thinking (a teacher maybe shouldn´t be a philosopher, even less a contemporary one, I presume, but this dashing out against ideas associated with postmodernity is just an elaborate way of saying "I don´t like my contemporary pudding, Mum, I won´t eat it."). I´m really grateful for this article, though, it´s about something else than the trifles of some setup.
Markus
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-05-31 08:20
How important are school music programmes anyway?
I look back to my own education. I attended a highly academically selective school, partially fee-paying and partially state-supported. (My parents did not pay fees, many did.) The school had a strong drama tradition but little music tradition. It produced a certain number of competent amateur musicians, and the very occasional professional. But when I say "it produced" them, in truth the school had very little to do with it. The musicians were those whose parents paid for them to learn music outside school. The school put on the occasional concert where these people could play and sing, and had a choir and orchestra (of sorts) which met outside school hours.
I wonder whether the outcome would have been so different if the school had tried much harder to teach music. I don't mean in the sense of being a specialist school, but if it had treated music as a core part of the curriculum rather than a minority interest. Would it have produced dozens of professional musicians, or just hundreds of pupils who played enthusiastically to age 18 and never again?
I'm not a parent, but I believe we ask too much of our schools. We say, "Children should do X, therefore schools should provide X." On the contrary, I believe that it is the parents' duty to provide X. In some cases, X is best delegated to schools. In other cases, there are better ways to provide it.
I realise this view will not prove popular with some of the educators on this board.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: diz
Date: 2006-05-31 09:13
Markus, thank you for your comments. I really can't say whether Richard is (or isn't for that matter) a philosopher ... I also think you're probably judging him based on one attack vented in The Australian (national broadsheet, with a slightly right of centre bent).
Having known the author for almost 20 years did not, essentially, prompt me to post this article (in order to upset my fellow BBers). Rather, had it been written by David Peacham (for example) a person I know not, I still would have posted and asked the question (which I might add you've not answered - I think).
Rather, this bulletin board suffers rather too much from tedious discussions about dreaded reeds and setups and almost no discussions about "bigger thoughts" or musical pedagogy and its place in society.
David - thank you for your comments, too. Obviously you're a thinker and ponder the way we are and how we got there. I too am not a parent (used to have a Siamese cat, but it died) but really do agree with Mr. Gil's rant that techno-babble is like placing a thick mask over a clear window and expecting the resultant to be precise does not aid us in ensuring that we grow up in a country (in my case one run by a Bush loving right wing horror) that fosters childrens' abilities to "be musical" or "be artistic" instead of just "being big business".
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2006-05-31 09:16)
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2006-05-31 14:35
My opinion is that the entire educational structure in the US is in dire straits. "Free and appropriate" education has been translated by parents into filing lawsuits when children get into academic or disciplinary problems at school. School districts trying to avoid lawsuits have "cow towed", therefore discipline is nearly non-existant in most situations.
Now, to get back on topic, I think that the arts instill more discipline in students than the general academia, with perhaps the athletic programs being an exception. The music programs in US public schools generally include band, orchestra, and choral programs. There are many schools that do not offer orchestra programs, especially in the more rural areas. The curriculum will vary in each state and school district. There was/is a national standard set forth by a commission but is more of a guideline to be used or not. Programs are becoming more competition driven as given by example of Bands of America and other individual and state competitions. Whether these contests are vehicles for individual musical growth is debatable. Perhaps for some they are but also may be too much for others. I'm not sure the accuarcy of these numbers today, but a few years ago it was noted by a report issued by the Gemeinhardt company that approximatley 10 percent of a schools population was involved in music whether it be instrumental or vocal in the first year of middle school (grade 6), but by the time the class reached the 12th grade approximatley only 3 percent remained.
Funding for the arts is becoming more problematic also. Budget cuts have left programs without funding or cut entirely. Some schools are being ran on proceeds from fund raising activities, grants, and "membership" dues. I know of one high school in Houston ISD that does not have a feeder program whatsoever. The middle school that sends students to this particular high school cut its instrumental music program entirely. I imagine that in a few years the high school program will suffer as well.
jbutler
Post Edited (2006-05-31 14:36)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-05-31 15:13
In the US, we have a program: every student left behind that distracts from almost every element of the ciricula. Education has lost it.
Here, our great, effective, inspirational high school music director is retiring in two weeks, and there is no search for his replacement. He established an advanced placement music program --with Finale/computer/midi keyboards. It is crammed into a tiny "lab." It is so oversubscribed that many students will not be able to get into the class.
We have 3 or 4 of the high school students who play with the adult orchestra and one in the swing band, none in the chorale. The high school has no orchestra program --so kids with competence in stringed instruments are rare.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2006-05-31 15:44
diz,
Is the actual curiculum available somewhere on line??
Gill's comments certainly are spot-on, IMO, given the sections of the document which he critiques. I'd like to see the actual thing too, though...
Katrina
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2006-05-31 17:31
jbutler wrote: "Free and appropriate" education has been translated by parents into filing lawsuits when children get into academic or disciplinary problems at school. School districts trying to avoid lawsuits have "cow towed", therefore discipline is nearly non-existant in most situations. <
I agree that people sue the schools and the schools ask people to medicate their kids, when what the kid really needs is attention and structure, particularly in the home. However, sometimes the legal system is the only way to get the system to do what needs to be done. I had a nephew who waited nearly two years for a laptop that the school had agreed to provide because of his learning issues and the need to go paperless.
jbutler also wrote: it was noted by a report issued by the Gemeinhardt company that approximatley 10 percent of a schools population was involved in music whether it be instrumental or vocal in the first year of middle school (grade 6), but by the time the class reached the 12th grade approximatley only 3 percent remained.<
I can believe that figure. Kids have precious few electives, and they get so busy after school that unless the family puts a heavy value on the arts, the music lessons or the band class will be the first to go compared to soccer, karate, advanced academic study, working for the Eagle Scout, etc. It is hard to argue with the logic of families who have to make these decisions.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-05-31 19:23
And (although the point has probably been made somewhere above), the U.S. (at least) is the land of instant gratification ---- we want our fun to be easy, and we want it RIGHT NOW! Learning to play a musical instrument competently takes years, and most kids in this country are culturally indisposed to make such a commitment, when there are so many other diversions/activities that are far easier to do and don't require much discipline or dedication.
All of this starts at home --- I don't envy the schools being expected to solve problems that the parents have failed to deal with.
Post Edited (2006-05-31 20:54)
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Author: diz
Date: 2006-05-31 22:28
Katrina, not sure about that, I'll see if I can find it. Being a state sponsored educational mantra, it should (in theory) be available for anyone to view.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: steve s
Date: 2006-05-31 23:05
perhaps we should not present arts education as providing skills that can be used for pleasant diversion or as begining skills leading to professional employment, but as esential _survival skills_ on the order of proficiency in reading, basic mathematics, computer use, or health education.
after motor neuron disease (ALS) ended my scientific career and 40 years experience as a performing musician, the basic skills (learned in middle school) of being able to read music and operate a computer opened a door to a seemingly endless creative universe, and kept my life worth living.
hey parents...is soccer ability gonna save your kid's life someday?
s.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-05-31 23:34
steve s wrote:
> perhaps we should not present arts education as providing
> skills that can be used for pleasant diversion or as begining
> skills leading to professional employment, but as esential
> _survival skills_ on the order of proficiency in reading, basic
> mathematics, computer use, or health education.
I would question the competency of any school board member presenting arts education on the same level as reading and math.
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Author: steve s
Date: 2006-05-31 23:57
Mark Charette (---.sneezy.org - ISP in Chicago, IL United States) said:
>I would question the competency of any school board member presenting >arts education on the same level as reading and math.
my story ain't unique. if you run for schoolboard in my district, i'll vote against you.
s.
(ba nu, phd,u of i-chemistry), 25 years in big pharma
clarinet w/squire,marcellus,forrest,stowell,ormand,klug
but it all started in a west side cleveland high school...
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-06-01 00:09
steve s wrote:
> Mark Charette (---.sneezy.org - ISP in Chicago, IL United
> States) said:
>
> >I would question the competency of any school board member
> presenting >arts education on the same level as reading and
> math.
>
> my story ain't unique. if you run for schoolboard in my
> district, i'll vote against you.
I'm sure it's not; I'm sure you'd vote against me.
I personally think a lot of people involved in the arts have an inflated view of its overall worth. As an adjunct to a basic education - great. As an equal requirement to basic education - not. If you're going to have to cut to bare bones - leave the reading and math. Without those you can't even get a subsistence job.
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Author: diz
Date: 2006-06-01 00:46
Mark ... you are spot on. The overall worth of the Arts is inflated, which is why (for example) the provision of government funding is often minimal. Afterall - being strong economically fosters a country's soul, eh?
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: steve s
Date: 2006-06-01 02:33
Mark Charette (---.sneezy.org - ISP in Chicago, IL United States) said:
>As an adjunct to a basic education - great. As an equal requirement to basic education - not. If you're going to have to cut to bare bones - leave the reading and math. Without those you can't even get a subsistence job.
this discussion is so old that it pre-dates the development of the reed (by homo neanderthalis vandorenensis..stone tools in french caves were actually reed knives).
we'll have to agree to disagree.
its the venerable "bread and roses" dispute; all jobs feel like subsistence jobs without art in your world...
s.
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Author: diz
Date: 2006-06-01 06:48
Markus:
{The term deconstruction was coined by French philosopher Jacques Derrida in the 1960s and is used in contemporary humanities and social sciences to denote a philosophy of meaning that deals with the ways that meaning is constructed and understood by writers, texts, and readers. One way of understanding the term is that it involves discovering, recognizing, and understanding the underlying — and unspoken and implicit — assumptions, ideas, and frameworks that form the basis for thought and belief. It has various shades of meaning in different areas of study and discussion, and is, by its very nature, difficult to define without depending on "un-deconstructed" concepts.}
Can't see how Gil's attack is anything LESS than deconstructionist.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2006-06-01 07:14
Okay, I finally read the article. What the Aussies are going through in terms of nebulous substitutes for actual accomplishment is something that has been going on in America for at least the last 20 years. We're actually beginning to wake up from it in some of the more concrete subject areas. Why train selected kids to be musicians, when the entire class can be trained as critics?
Given what's been described and quoted, it seems like this is an outcome-based curriculum, and the most probable outcome of it would be an army of miniature Simon Cowells.
Liberation from actual skills and competence is not liberation at all, and critical thought without a thorough command of the facts, skills, and principles involved in a subject doesn't IMO qualify as real thought.
It's like trying to discuss the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence with a kid who has been indoctrinated into the philosophy of it all, but who cannot recall (and who may have never seen) the actual contents of those documents. I often envy the lifelong intimacy that my grandparents had with these works because they were made to memorize portions of them as schoolchildren.
The world is full of folk musicians who learn repertoire and basic skills informally from a master musician, and who must actually attract and hang on to an audience to survive as even an amateur musician. Why are so many of them so creative after years of learning traditional songs by rote? Perhaps because actual skill and experience trumps self-conscious (and possibly self-defined) creativity.
Let's put our little Simon Cowell next to the banjo kid from Deliverance, and see who's actually been enriched by the arts.
Allen Cole
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Author: diz
Date: 2006-06-02 01:14
Allen Cole said:
What the Aussies are going through in terms of nebulous substitutes for actual accomplishment is something that has been going on in America for at least the last 20 years
Slight correction here, What the West Australians are going through is more correct. New South Wales (where the Capital Sydney lives) does not have this type of currciulum, thank god. As for Victoria, Queensland, et cetera ... not sure.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: Rick Williams
Date: 2006-06-02 17:35
I'm not a music educator so perhaps my opinion doesn't count in this discussion but the question that strikes me is what are the goals of public music education in my country?
In the state I live in as just an observer I would say the goal is to produce trophys for the school. The kids spend the entire year practicing one peice after another for a contest and the music is usually written for contests by music educators, for music educators so music educators can make money.
The kids begin late summer marching around witout instruments, then later marching with instruments followed by a contest, then repeat and repeat again. This is followed by concernt band contests and jazz band contests and aside from football games they will manage perhaps one non-contest performance per year composed of broadway show medleys and a few popular pieces.
Of course this is terribly expensive because the marching band needs the semi-trailer truck to go here and there not to mention all the other support equipment and personel such as the professional choreographer for the marching routines and the 4-8 speciality teachers needed to support the various sections during the season let alone to 50-100 members of the band boosters.
Not to be overly critical it does produce some competant players depending on how you define competant. The fact that many if not most of them have never seen a piece by Mozart or Beethoven may not be relevant in the quest for those trophys so who am I to criticize. As long as they can knock off a Star Wars medley while executing complex marching manuvers, who cares about Mozart. The way I figure it if you don't play the classics in school then they must not be important.
Of course there is also the odd kid out, the one who is serious about music who plays something that doesn't work well in a marching band so for better than half the year he or she is forced to play something like the drums because the bassoon just doesn't cut it. This of course they must do because unless you march, you aren't allowed in anything else.
The rest of the kids just end up being burned out by the contests and by the end of the state finals the instruments get tucked away in the closet until marching band camp that summer and the cycle begins again.
I'm sure there are different programs out there but this is exactly how it works in my neck of the woods. So deconstructionist discussions aside, what are the professional music educators in HS trying to accomplish?
Best
Rick
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Author: Markus Wenninger
Date: 2006-06-02 18:52
diz-
-deconstruction isn´t polemic, neither as an attribute, nor as identity. Really it isn´t. the lemma from (which?) dictionary is more or less accurate, and at least tries to refrain from ranting about how postmodern philosophy is just a rhetorical hubhub. I hope I don´t appear to be too touchy about this subject, but just yesterday I read the frontpage of a reknowned German newspaper, and in a schoolmasterly tone the writer scolded again postmodernity for nivellating arguments and identities, being unscientific etc etc pp. Tiresome. /But you´re right, I really think that this Board should be a plateau for deeper and broader horizons and questions; it depends on us. /Let me add that I do apprehend the US´s musical opportunities,still, in Germany there´s very little in the field of non-academical musical organisation, public money,the curricula and the opportunity to both give and receive whatever puny lessons. Even the dedication and money provided by private engagement, there aren´t rooms available, or instruments, or communities/parents/media to support and believe in non-public dedication apart from sending one´s own priviledged children to the academy.
Markus
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Author: Tony Beck
Date: 2006-06-02 20:18
Last year, my then 11 year old daughter came home and announced that her band was playing Jupiter. I asked; “You mean the Jupiter by Holst?” “I think so.” She answered. “From the Planets?” “Ya, that’s it!”
This was in a 5th to 8th grade band. They played it too, and that wasn’t the only golden oldie they performed. They also played for the school Christmas play, kind of silent movie style. They pulled it off well. So, there is at least one school band that’s not just sports break entertainment and competition fodder.
On the other hand, we switched schools this year. Their academics have been as good as the other school, but the overall arts program has been disappointing. She misses the arts, and so do we. So, next year she is going back where she was. I don’t know if she will be a professional clarinet player, but she sure is happier going off to school.
In my book, the Three Rs are the foundation of education, but given a choice of two overall excellent programs, the one that’s stronger in arts gets our support.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-06-02 23:52
My son, pervert that he is, decided on bassoon when starting the music program down here in the Pearland ISD schools. He continued well along the progress line that I expected of him, thereby exceeding that set by the schools. At the end of his eighth grade year, he was starting to read tenor clef, and had already played fag in two community musicals, the second year up to speed with the best of the adults in the pit orchestra for Sound Of Music.
However, came high school he was told that he would have to start attending the various marching band functions well before school started. The first nail in the coffin was something called "Fish Camp", where he would be spending a two week period doing close order drill sans instrument. He was also told to pick between percussion or sousaphone, the next step in his musical education.
It made the decision to drop band all the easier when he was told "No Fish Camp, no band". As he had several weeks of hockey camp already scheduled for the Fish Camp period, it was farewell music in the public schools.
Marching band may be fun (as many have told me that it is), but one thing that it most certainly is not is music education. Music is secondary to stunting around on a football field, something that no human being needs to be doing in September in the great and holy state of Texas.
I shudder to think what would have happened had my school district had the same policies. Thankfully, the district had a music director (who also did the high school band) who was dead set against same. Thank you, Bob Tobler...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-06-03 00:17
As I've said previously:
"...Marching band is to music as television "wrestling" is to sports..."
Both venues are scripted events, with carefully choreographed movements, that produce very predictable results which is passed off to a gullible audience as entertainment.
Audiences often pay good money to attend and support both events.
But, it is a huge waste of taxpayers dollars which were initially earmarked for music.
And let's not even begin to assess the damage to a high school concert band program after initially "writing off" the first 3 months of the school year, and then taking valuable time away for having to "undo" the fine tonality that was achieved by playing FFF for 12 weeks...GBK (retired HS band director and VERY retired marching band director)
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Author: johnsonfromwisconsin
Date: 2006-06-03 04:46
<i>It made the decision to drop band all the easier when he was told "No Fish Camp, no band". As he had several weeks of hockey camp already scheduled for the Fish Camp period, it was farewell music in the public schools.</i>
I really enjoyed marching during HS, but now much later I have these same misgivings about it. Marching and Halftime shows was no less than a departure from actual music. Basically, music was a sideshow trying to justify itself to an athletic oriented populus.
While I agree with Mark that the arts must be secondary to the core skills of math, science, literacy, and such, they then often take a tertiary position behind non-curricular sports programs. To me, that just isn't right, even as an ardent follower of football and baseball.
-JfW
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-06-03 05:34
It may be enjoyable for some, but to someone who has spent many, many, many an hour in long route marches in infantry training, plus many more as a drill instructor post RVN, it's got to be the most perverse way to promote "music" that anyone has come up with to date.
It's out of tune, played in piss poor conditions, and to an audience that largely could care if it was happening in the first place. Sure, the band parents support their children's activities to the hilt, but why not do the same thing indoors and in a musical fashion? Smaller attendance perhaps, but closer to "music" than the DCI abomination of marching band.
(Also, the conditions that these kids march under down here are inhuman at times. There are occasional reports of heat stress and heat stroke for the band, not just the football players. If that happens, someone's not doing their job right.)
Further, to stunt a bassoon player's overall musical progress in order to have another file on a pattern at the forty yard line is just plain wrong. What's the point of investing in training for the kid (as we did with excellent fag teachers from the day he started), when he'll spend five months a year "getting by" on sousaphone just so the marching band is a "success"?
I've been told "You should have put him in the orchestra" by some, but that's just not an option down here. Our horrid district (Pearland Independent School District) does not have a "real" orchestra, but rather one of those chamber things, with strings, piano and tympani. Only one of the nearby districts had a "real" orchestra program at the time, and to this day "real" orchestras are thin on the ground down here.
Mind you, I too was stuck in a "no orchestra" environment when I was in high school. However, we didn't do marching band, and I always participated in the All County Orchestra (only kid from my district to do so, doubling clarinet, bass clarinet and bassoon), two community orchestras, and various summer music programs the while. Sometimes you've got to seek out opportunities.
In any event, it's all water under the bridge now. He's happy as an A level hockey player, and he can noodle around on a bassoon whenever he wants to (I've got a rebuilt one).
One of the guys who plays upright bass for my group is a middle school string instructor in one of the large districts down here. I do everything I can to help encourage his program, from digging out opportunities for his better students to play in pit orchestras to using some of his contrabass students as subs for my bass slot. (The Mexican component, due to the popularity of mariachi orchestras down here, is big on putting their children into the string program.)
But, as he says, it's an uphill battle for him to get the resources to develop the players in the early years. Most of the district's music money is eaten up by the (you've guessed it) marching band program at the high school level.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Markael
Date: 2006-06-03 11:42
Terry, et al,
I won’t say that you are wrong about marching band, but I would like to offer another perspective.
Granted, in some areas it has gotten to be over the top. And your comments about all the hours marching without instruments in the heat are well taken. But there are benefits.
I have always considered marching band to be, in part, the way a band “pays its dues.” The performance is high profile, played before a diverse audience who might not otherwise listen to this combination of winds at all.
Terry, I was amused by your comment that the band plays “to an audience that largely could care if it was happening in the first place.” At a lot of your high school football games that’s true of the team as well! The students mill around and socialize and ignore the game.
But maybe people in the stands are listening more than you think. The band is demonstrating the versatility of wind instruments. We can play Queen as well as Mozart. Who knows, it may be an entry point for some listeners into band and orchestral music. It definitely is for some of the players.
When I was in high school (late ‘60’s,early ‘70’s) we rode band buses to away games. Now I’m told that isn’t done as much due to insurance regulations. Pity. This sense of being in a unit, working together for a common goal, and the togetherness (both good and bad) contributed to the overall band experience. These are things you don’t get in piano lessons.
Marching may not contribute to the finest quality music, but it does give some kids who aren’t athletically inclined a way to get off their video game butts. Besides, it has a noble tradition in New Orleans street bands, etc.
Marching band and concert band are the two parts of the high school band experience. In any organization, different people are attracted to the organization for different reasons. The process of learning from one another and building group cohesion from these diverse elements is an important life lesson.
Lastly, in the smaller schools, the band program simply won’t work unless all band students (with exceptions in special cases) participate in both marching and concert band.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2006-06-03 15:23
There is a growing trend toward plain speech.
The current notion among smaller American business owners is that if you can't describe what your company does in one sentence, the purpose is likely illegal if not outright fraudulation of the buying public.
Here's a document generator designed to cover over the gaps in credulity your prospectus must cover if you want to fleece a Mark...
http://www.dack.com/web/bullshit.html
Any of that sound familiar?
Just stand up in a meeting and ask for articulation and explication of any obvious furrforie, and watch for the pile to deepen...
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Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2006-06-03 23:18
I'm enjoying the debate on the proper place for music education in school.
One interesting ally for those who believe musical education to be the equal of academics:
Plato, in "The Republic", advocated equal emphasis on academics, music, and athletics. Too much focus in any one area creates nerds, wimps, and jocks. A correct mix of the three produces the best people. In fact, it is music that is to be studied first in this scheme.
This debate, about the best sort way to educate, has been around for millenia. I doubt it will end anytime soon.
P.S. Synonymous - Your link is likely to offend some people and probably should not be there, given the number of children who come here. But that is for the webmonkeys to decide. I'm surprised it wasn't filtered out.
Post Edited (2006-06-03 23:25)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-06-04 00:51
JessKateDD wrote:
> P.S. Synonymous - Your link is likely to offend some people
> and probably should not be there, given the number of children
> who come here. But that is for the webmonkeys to decide.
> I'm surprised it wasn't filtered out
[ PLEASE let us determine what is and what is not appropriate for the bulletin board and not debate the issue.
EVERY posting is read and reviewed by Mark C and myself. We frequently discuss among ourselves postings which we feel are questionable.
Although you may not agree with every decision, many factors are taken into final consideration. Our individual emails are always available for your use - GBK ]
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Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2006-06-04 02:51
Well, if the webmaster himself puts that link up, then I guess it's OK. But I do find it ironic for in the past he has been pretty strict about such language on this site.
And I made it clear in my previous post that what is appropriate is the decision of the webmasters, but thanks for patronizing me anyway, GBK.
Post Edited (2006-06-04 02:53)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-06-04 02:52
JessKateDD wrote:
> But I do find it ironic for in the past he has been
> pretty strict about such language on this site.
It depends on the context, of course, and I didn't name the URL. I would have abbreviated it.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2006-06-04 15:17
I don't think that marching band is really to blame for most of our music ed. problems, although I have had some talented students who left band programs over their displeasure with it.
Actually, marching band sometimes performs more 'established' repertoire than does concert band. A couple of years ago, one program that I'm involved with played The Firebird on the field, but then filled its concert schedule with a bunch of no-name stuff that keep the percussionists sufficiently occupied to avoid bedlam.
I'm actually seeing schools doing more to provide clinicians and private instruction on instruments, but achieving less than they did when I was coming up and the programs weren't so bloated with money.
The biggest thing that I see is that students are consumers of music instruction, not participants in it. And their parents often share the same mindset. "Whatever my kid needs to play, the band director or clinician will teach him." I still have students who will not attempt the material of a school playing test until they can bring it into a lesson. They're waiting for me to spoonfeed it to them just like the program does.
Aggressiveness may be what we need to foster. I just see too many kids afraid to do or even investigate something for themselves, before receiving specialized help. It's the same factor at work as they hide out in their sections and miss entrances if not guided by someone else. It's just plain paralysis.
One specific idea that I think we could implement is to give them and their parents some sort of orientation before beginning instruction. I can get first-year players to do things that 3rd or 4th year players with no previous private instruction won't even try. We need to do more to foster the pursuit of curiosity and bring in practical problem-solving skills, before those kids become those paralyzed 3rd or 4th year players. And we need to train their parents to understand--because some of those parents were also paralyzed 3rd or 4th year players who have owned but not really played an instrument.
Allen Cole
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Author: pmgoff78
Date: 2006-06-04 18:48
allencole wrote:
>
> Actually, marching band sometimes performs more 'established'
> repertoire than does concert band. A couple of years ago, one
> program that I'm involved with played The Firebird on the
> field, but then filled its concert schedule with a bunch of
> no-name stuff that keep the percussionists sufficiently
> occupied to avoid bedlam.
>
> I'm actually seeing schools doing more to provide clinicians
> and private instruction on instruments, but achieving less than
> they did when I was coming up and the programs weren't so
> bloated with money.
>
> The biggest thing that I see is that students are consumers of
> music instruction, not participants in it. And their parents
> often share the same mindset. "Whatever my kid needs to play,
> the band director or clinician will teach him." I still have
> students who will not attempt the material of a school playing
> test until they can bring it into a lesson. They're waiting for
> me to spoonfeed it to them just like the program does.
>
> Aggressiveness may be what we need to foster. I just see too
> many kids afraid to do or even investigate something for
> themselves, before receiving specialized help. It's the same
> factor at work as they hide out in their sections and miss
> entrances if not guided by someone else. It's just plain
> paralysis.
>
> One specific idea that I think we could implement is to give
> them and their parents some sort of orientation before
> beginning instruction. I can get first-year players to do
> things that 3rd or 4th year players with no previous private
> instruction won't even try. We need to do more to foster the
> pursuit of curiosity and bring in practical problem-solving
> skills, before those kids become those paralyzed 3rd or 4th
> year players. And we need to train their parents to
> understand--because some of those parents were also paralyzed
> 3rd or 4th year players who have owned but not really played an
> instrument.
This is all great stuff. I teach H.S. students who are in unbelieveable programs, but they don't explore either. There is an overwhelming fear amongst them of "getting it wrong."
I think the thing I would add your plan is the restriction of access to anyone under 18 years of age to websites like this. There's too much junk spewed at young kids on ANY forum, not just this one, and the kids get confused and some probably just assume they don't have a chance with folks like us. Great post Allen!
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Author: allencole
Date: 2006-06-05 06:40
If you're getting them to even LOOK at this or any other instrument-related BB, you're doing better than I am.
Heaviest lesson-related internet use among my students is to download transcribed jazz solos--when I would prefer that they actually do some transcribing of their own.
I would like to see a couple of things in place:
1 - Music appreciation for both students and parents--particularly on the classical side. Maybe in the form of weekend seminars. Specifically, I'd like to see folks get tickets to a concert, then preview the pieces to be played and get some background info on them. Maybe even some readings from "Classical Music for Dummies" or "What to Listen For in Music". Classical music in the home is a priceless gift to any future musician.
2 - More emphasis on playing in different keys at an earlier age. This is one of my main gripes with Rubank Elementary and some of the older band methods. Players get way too hooked on playing in C, F, & G, and I see high school freshmen (4th year players in my area) who have never addressed pinkie alternation, and who are also trying to operate their E-ring, A-key, and maybe even their G# key with the exact same part of their left index finger. Tragic! We need real-world songs (not just exercises!) that address technical issues in ways that make it obvious to the student. (I'd like to get a thread going to see what our teachers are using in this vein right now)
3 - I'd also like to have some fairly simple pieces (a la Belwin's "Tunes for Clarinet Technic" Book 1) that are in difficult keys. Too often, students are introduced to difficult keys by difficult pieces and are then overwhelmed. Easier pieces would let us start tougher keys at earlier ages.
4 - More chances for kids to be heard as individuals. I'm seeing more band directors set aside time for individuals to play solos or pass off scales. I'm also seeing good things with the Tri-M music clubs in the schools. Kids need solo & small group experiences where they can run their own show to the limits of their ability. Often, all they need from a teacher is just someone to spot them in a couple of difficult places.
5 - Simpler technical training at earlier ages, and more musical training. Kids need to be able to read music, and the essence of reading is counting. Gotta be done. Also, we need to look at our priorities in teaching technique. We are often too anxious to teach kids advanced techniques that work well in preparing a piece, but which can cripple a student when sight reading or playing by ear. We need a good supply of materials which involve judgement calls in this area.
Of course, the schools can't do this alone, and we still need to promote private instruction. That might be the ultimate difficulty with it all...
Allen Cole
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Author: graham
Date: 2006-06-05 12:26
Music and History suffer from the same tendency to exaggerate their usefulness in a wider context when considering the teaching of the subjects at school level. And the main reason appears to be a desire to promote their inclusion when otherwise they are at greater risk of exclusion. This seems the likely reason for use of flabby language which seems to suggest that music composition is like a wider creative project or that certain vital interpersonal skills are conveyed in the study of music. But the motivation for such obscure and unconvincing language is a desperate desire to preserve the thing we want to preserve, namely music activity in schools.
For History, we are told that we will be condemned to repeat our mistakes over and over again unless we study History. This ignores the fact that we are condemned to do that anyway. Both Music and History can have favourable effects on participants but have nothing like the broad efficacy which their apologists try to convey. If there was more confidence that Music was worth doing for its own sake, and that it would actually be done whether or not covered in school programmes, then the kind of mumbo jumbo that the Australian document has put forward could be avoided. But what would be the direct consequence if they dropped that way of thinking right this minute? Would music education flourish? Probably not.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2006-06-05 14:33
I can see where you're coming from, Graham and it is a corner that we can easily paint ourselves into when promoting music education. I believe that it's also an important reason that we are seeing such poor performance levels in some areas. Sports teams and music groups are held prisoner by their weakest members, and if salesmanship is our goal with school music we're killing ourselves by begging folks to participate who will not pull their weight.
For the average person, music education may do no more than possibly expand the scope of styles that they appreciate. We need to foster INTEREST in music, and prepare opportunities for those who feel that interest. But for sure, instrumental music is not for everybody and we need to have other opportunities for people who have other interests with educational merit.
I would disagree on history, though. I would consider that a basic subject. Music is not, but in most areas classical music cannot easily be pursued at a group level without the resources that public schools offer. I think that our biggest struggle in school music is to get students and parents to accept standards of performance similar to those that they accept and take for granted in other subjects.
Allen Cole
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Author: diz
Date: 2006-06-05 23:43
Glad to see my little post created so much interest. Thanks to one and all for you insightful comments and insights, especially Allen Cole, who obviously spends too much time pondering the bigger things in life than most of us should!
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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The Clarinet Pages
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