 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-05-26 17:20
As I posted at the Leblanc Bores thread, a good cl f[r]iend inherited a pro Leb, ser.#37xx which has several Velly Interesting/unusual features. 1. a 7th ring which gives a tolerable Eb/Bb fork, but has no small tonehole/pad for tuning; 2. Doubled F/C pads, like my Selmer Bass cl; 3. the Stubbins-like register key, both pads open for pinch Bb and register. A Museum piece ?? All thots are welcome, TKS, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Tony Beck
Date: 2006-05-26 21:37
About a year ago I encountered a Leblanc Bb with the pro style keywork and double F/C pads, but no 7th ring or other unusual features. It was billed as a "pre-classic". Don't know the s.n. I have a Moennig Bb (from David Spiegalthal) with double F/C also. It must have been popular at some point.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-05-27 19:39
To my line of thinking, mention of this older, unusual cl should qualify-for, and be made in the "handmade" cl thread, as any prototype is in that category, IMHO. On initial checking-out, it plays very well, in tune, the Stubbins higher register pad needs more spring tension, I believe, otherwise with an M Lurie mp, an M L lig and Lavoz reed and it plays very mellow/dark, which I like !! More to follow, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-05-27 22:23
Being a curious, research-type ?, person, I used my Mitutoyo caliper to measure what I could as to bore sizes along the cl. I found that my M Lurie mp tenon was 14.80 mm diameter. The top of the barrel [couldn't measure] "felt smooth" [same dimension?]. The bottom of the barrel was "smooth" to the top of the UJ, which was 14.91 !, while the bottom of the UJ was 14.80, the interface with the L J appearing smooth. Its bottom was some 19.95 - 20 mm and smooth to bell. There is indication of machining at the top of the UJ, ??possibly poly cyl or conical ??. To me, it suggests being a "test" of Buffet-Carree's modified UJ's. Also , in this time period [late 40's-50's], it is known that Stubbins and Leon L had contact [about licensing his patent ?], none too friendly ?, as I read in his book. The source of the 7th ring may be early Buffet, and the doubled F/C pads may be an earlier Selmer [bass?] development. I realize the degree of supposition, I'm making here, [is this all OK?, GBK/MC], but hope it may inspire commentary, pro/con. WOW, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2006-05-27 23:51
Don,
I find the discussions about Leblanc--Stubbins implementations confusing and having read any posts I can find on this Board, I am still confused. It is clear that Leblanc had a double vent design that is very easy to confuse with the Stubbins design earlier than the Stubbins branded double vent later produced by Leblanc, and probably prior to the Selmer production of Mazzeo clarinets. In another thread earlier this year, Ken Shaw commented that the Stubbins contribution was not the double vent design itself as Leblanc and others (Selmer Omega) had double vent systems in production prior to Stubbins, but the proper placement of the two vents for the register and throat Bb, similar to the Mazzeo placement with a higher register key than when one hole was used for both the register and Bb and a secondary vent near the side Bb vent and at the same level on the upper joint.
Interestingly, several Leblanc clarinets have been offered for sale on the auction site within the past six months that appear to be Stubbins designs at first examination but later appear to perhaps predate the true Stubbins contribution because their placement of the holes is not the same, and the mechanical linkages are slightly different than those implemented on Stubbins-branded Leblanc products (I have several examples of each sitting in cases in my office, so I know this to be true through personal examination). If someone can clarify this for me, I would appreciate it. Don, do you know, or can you determine as the resident patent expert on this board, exactly what the Stubbins patent covered? Was it primarily hole placement, or was it for an actual mechanical mechanism different from that on earlier Leblanc double-vented clarinets?
[And to confuse the picture even more, as I have previously stated here, I own a Selmer BT clarinet in A that has a true Stubbins-Kaspar vent and register key on it (with the key even marked S-K on the underside)! I have yet to figure out why there is a Selmer clarinet floating around with a S-K key and vents on it.]
I am told on good authority (Sherman Friedland) that apparently there were legal discussions among the parties about the infringement of the Stubbins patent upon the Mazzeo patents, so I am wondering if this was all about where the vents were placed rather than the actual mechanical linkages for opening them up.
A year ago I set out to figure out the mystery of Stubbins clarinet production. The more I read, learn, and see on actual clarinets, the more confused I get.
George
Post Edited (2006-05-28 00:32)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-05-28 02:03
Yes, yure rite, George, the ancestry/improvements/modifications of the 2nd, tonehole register [speaker and Bb] vent system/mechanisms is a very complex picture. I have no good evaluation, just much speculation. We are moving to a retirement "Village" in a few days, so my patent files are boxed [perhaps lost] for a bit. I have found only one patent to Stubbins/Kasper, and while Mazzeo has 5 pats, I believe his earliest is somewhat later than S-K and, I believe, only uses the conventional next-to-top trill, not an "under the reg. key", similarly-located, tonehole. For patent application and issuance, often only the "most innovative/different-from-prior-art" embodiments end up being claimed, so much prior and later research/development still is mfgr'g-secret, but may appear in products, avoiding pat infringment, or after pat expiration. You can find and read these pats at USPTO and study claims, I've put these #'s in several posts. After our "moving/discarding dust" settles in a few weeks, I'll look into it again, hopefully better. I just now wanted to "brag" about what I think is a VG Leblanc model [a limited - prototype ?].. Glad you are interested, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2006-05-28 11:39
Hi Don, I'll appreciate the opportunity to compare notes with you on the patents and collaborate in figuring this out as I am also trying to assemble a set of the key documents related to throat Bb "solutions" and then to understand the timeline of who did what, who claimed what, and how this was implemented in actual clarinets that made it out of the workshop. And maybe to start to figure out the perplexing issue of how rare or common some of these configurations are. It strikes me that these days, a "lot" of the odd prototypes and less common models actually become "visible" because they end up on the auction site where more of us see them than would have been the case even a few years ago. George
PS. Good luck with move.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-05-28 16:13
Hi again George et al - To provide a bit more fuel for "our" fire, and save you some search time, I took a short break from packing to re-find and report here the "important [IMHO]" patent #s on Stubbins, 2,598,550, filed 1949 [initially and refiled, I believe], Mazzeo, 2,867,146, filed 1959, and L Leblanc, 3,079828, filed 1960. Happy holiday reading/comparisons. Most have references cited in their USPO litigation, which they had to surpass to achieve patentability. They might also deserve a look-see. Their "file wrappers", which I believe are obtainable from the PO [costly ?] would be the best historical info, I know of. They might be "readable" at the Pat Office, a good pat attorney could tell you. Ain't searching fun ? Regards, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-05-28 23:42
You used to be able to examine the actual patent "shoe", a little filing drawer sort of thing, that the various office actions were filed in. Very interesting reading to see the developmental steps of the patent process, along with the actual documner. However, the viewing process was onerous, and the location inconvenient (currently at Crystal City VA, just across the river from Washington DC).
I've been told that the old viewing rules have changed, but I've not been there in years. As it stands now, the "recent" patents are on view at the Patent and Trademark Office's website; you can view mine, one for woodwind instrument ligatures, there under Patent Number 4,796,507. But, the old stuff hasn't been put on line yet.
What is available (to those who live in or near large cities) is one of the patent depositories. This is a microfilm copy of all of the patents from Number 1 to the last Tuesday's release. A little cumbersome to search through, but you do get the complete article, not just the abstract (as used to be the case on the on-line site) or the text and one drawing (as used to be found in some of the published digests.
You can also search the system at these depositories through a system called CASSUS. You tell it what sort of item you are looking to patent and it will return a number for all of the clarinet mechanism patents, or all of the blender patents, or all of the windshield wiper patents. Then you take it to the microfilm and start looking. It's not perfect, and the examiner will often suggest areas that need to be answered that you never thought of. (One of mine was a patent related to the use of hook and loop fasteners to secure Alaskan Pipeline insulation; pretty far from holding a reed on a horn.)
It is fascinating to page through the patents, seeing the foundation for some fundamental things in your life as you spin through the film to the one that you are seeking. While chasing down such diverse things as pipe wraps and C melody saxophone ligatures, I blundered into the frequency shifting patent co-awarded to Hedy Lamar, the design patent for the Chrysler Airflow, and many other things. (During a search, you look at a lot of patents.) Go back a bit further and you'll see the names of folks like Robert E. Lee, Jeb Stuart and other figures from American history.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-05-29 00:31
TKS, Terry, your post brings back memories of my many hours spent searching at the old Commerce Bldg patent library, before computer-programmed Class/subclass and keyword searching became available. My Co, supported the IFI chem/chem eng searching with me in charge, quite a career ! I'll check out your pat, Terry, you'll have a hard time to find any of mine which are in the fields of chem plant and refinery automation, most before 1970. Rereading my post , George, I found my error in Stubbins' pat #, its 2, 508,550, just hit the "next" key, sorry. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2006-05-29 01:01
Thanks Terry and Don. After I finished my doctorate 30 years ago, I hoped I would never see another microfiche reader again; after online articles in my field became available on the Internet 10 years ago, I hoped to never see library stacks again. I guess I have some time in the stacks of a library scheduled at some point in the next few months. I will post my conclusions after I track all of this stuff down. George
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2006-05-29 01:25
Don,
I have a similar clarinet purchased about 3 years ago. I started to overhaul it, but have been delayed by customer and other work. Poor mechanical shape, but can be brought back to life. It has the double register vent, plus the double F/C as you describe. I haven't thought about it in a while. I'll take another look at it as it is in pieces and post later.
jbutler
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-05-29 14:03
Thats great, John, TKS, several of us will appreciate your thots on its playability AND its repair/restoration. This one belongs to Bill Roberts [from his deceased brother, a combo leader[sax/cl] in Shreveport, LA for years] . Bill, another and I carpool to our Tulsa Comm Band. While its pads are stained, its quite tight, and, to me, only needs a stronger spring to open the high register vent better, plus a bit of TLC. Are you going to be here before long? I'm sure Bill will want some pro work done. Regards, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2006-05-29 20:53
Don,
Will be up B'ville way sometime within the next two months. I've got to get the boys summer camp schedules coordinated, etc, will let you know when.
jbutler
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-05-30 20:16
Don, a clarinet with the extra register mechanism that was produced by Leblanc is profiled (sort of) in the current issue of The Clarinet, which I just received in the mail this morning.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2006-05-30 22:55
Don,
I stand corrected. I looked at the piece last night. It has the double register vent, but no the double F/C. It does have the articulated C/G#; fork Eb; and third ring on UJ. The seral number has been either worn or filed off at one point. Wood is good, but needs a lot of mechanical work...probably why I put it aside.
jbutler
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-06-28 01:15
Well, you have what looks exactly like a plastic Vito, that appears to have something extra stamped on the upper joint (which your photo doesn't allow us to read- I guess it probably says "Stubbins"?). If it IS a Stubbins clarinet, you're not showing us the interesting bit (ie the underside of the top joint- does it have the SK mechanism?) however the keywork just looks like the classic Vito from late 1970s onward...
Maybe Vito made a Stubbins student clarinet in the 1980s?
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