 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Simon
Date: 2006-05-21 23:22
Hi everyone,
I am looking at buying a new student Alto Sax. I would be grateful if you can recomend some good brands and more importantly which brands to stay away from. I understand Yamaha, Yanigasawa and Con are suppose to be good brands.
Many thanks.
Simon
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-05-21 23:34
Try a Jupiter (700 series) or a student Yamaha (YAS-275), but Yanagisawa only really make intermediate to pro level saxes.
The Yamaha does come with a good quality mouthpiece (4C), though I'd recommend getting a better mouthpiece if you go for a Jupiter - a Yamaha 4C is a good all round beginners plastic mouthpiece, but later on if you want a better mouthpiece go for an ebonite Selmer S80 C** (C double star) - don't go for a metal mouthpiece to begin with.
I wouldn't go for a modern Conn or Bundy, the keywork on these is dreadful.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-05-21 23:42)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2006-05-22 00:59
Simon,
It would be helpful to know more about your brackground, the styles of music you mostly play, and your price range for an alto. Also, are you locked into wanting a new student-level instrument or could you be open to a high quality vintage saxophone? A little more information about your self and your music would help me to make a recommendation that hopefully can be a good match for you.
This might be a long shot but have you heard of Bootman (Richard Booth)? He's a fine saxophonist in Australia. If memory serves, I think that he lives in Syndey. He can contacted on the Sax On The Web forum. This forum has a link to the SOTW site. Bootman might be able to steer you to some good altos in your price range in Australia. Anyway, just a thought.
Good luck to you!
Roger
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: johnsonfromwisconsin
Date: 2006-05-22 02:52
Personally, I think new student horns are not very good buys value-wise. For just a few hundred more, often you can get a vastly superior professional horn, and you can get used student model horns for many hundreds less.
Yamaha is an almost universal recommendation. Yanagisawa only makes Pro-level instruments, but hey, if this is a horn for yourself and are looking to put down a decent wad of cash, why not treat yourself to a pro level horn regardless of make?
-JfW
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2006-05-23 13:29
The Antigua Winds Altos are surprisingly well made, for a Taiwanese horn.
The Yamaha YAS-23 is the defacto standard issue for beginning US players.
(It's been on the recommended list for beginners since it came out...)
Be advised that many of the beginner's saxophones are recommended according to durability first, and playability second.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: pewd
Date: 2006-05-23 14:07
We use YAS23's where I teach. Or YAS62's if you want a better one.
A lot depends on the age of the student - the younger ones tend to drop things, collide with stands, doors, each other, etc., so the younger students should stick with the cheaper student model horns until they grow past the clumsy stage.
I like the C* mouthpieces.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Malcolm Martland
Date: 2006-05-23 15:57
Thanks Chris. I was not sure from their literature. I'll stop hankering and stick to the clarinet.
Malcolm (UK)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-05-23 16:05
I think Hanson need to be a bit clearer when they say 'Direct from the factory' - I can't see the problem with mentioning where their instruments are made, honesty is the best policy.
I remember the Trevor James director telling me in person at an exhibition (Earls Court back in 1988) that their TJ10 flutes were made in their factory (in Maidstone) by their trainees, though I did have the nerve to argue with him the fact they're Taiwanese and were almost identical to the Sapphire flutes that were on sale at the same time (except for the decorative knurling on the socket rings and the name), but he wouldn't admit it. And I know some workers from TJ that know the facts - their flutes were Taiwanese.
The Pearl rep at the same exhibition openly admitted their student flutes were Taiwanese, and a Pearl rep I saw the other week had no problems telling me when I asked him which of their pro flutes was Taiwanese made, though the top end silver and the solid gold one he played was Japanese.
Chris P, West Sussex, UK.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-05-23 16:15)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bartleby
Date: 2006-05-24 13:36
Chris P, I've thought about ordering a Hanson alto but have never met anyone who has owned or even had a good look at one.If you've had any experience with them, could you tell us what you think please? I'm wondering how they match up against a good used YAS32 or even a 62.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2006-05-24 14:52
Simon,
The backup for my Selmer Mark VI Tenor is a Yamaha YTS 475 which gives little up to the VI. Although I have a Super 80 Alto as backup to my Mark VI, I had strongly considered several Yamaha models.
I have owned many Yamaha products and have always been very, very satisfied. You will be well served by a YAS 23 and anything above.
HRL
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-05-24 15:29
Bartleby,
If I was buying a used sax over a new one, I'd definitely be on the lookout for a used Yamaha (32 or more likely a 62) as I know that these are very reliable and can be fixed very easily if there's something not right with them. If you have the money and can find one, look out for a good Selmer MkVI (from between '54-'65) or Super Balanced Action (SBA) from the late '40s-mid '50s.
I've played on Yamahas for around 18 years now and definitely think you're better off with one of these (and definitely the 62 series) - the finishing, structure, build quality and general overall quality control on Yamahas is perhaps the best I've seen - when I bought my 62 baritone 16 years ago I've only had to replace the water key cork twice, and the only mechanical thing that ever went wrong was a piece of felt coming off the side Bb key fork, which was a doddle to replace.
The Hanson alto is based directly on the Selmer SA80II, which (let's face it) hasn't got the most ergonomic keywork compared to some of their (Selmer's) previous models and has some tuning problems that no doubt will have been copied as well.
They are also heavy saxes in weight compared to a Yamaha (which itself is only slightly heavier than a Selmer MkVI) and the Hanson has double key arms for the lower keys which are unnecessary as a well designed single arm works much better, and weighs less.
It makes me wonder why they add the extra arms when none of my Yamahas (or any Yamahas) have them for the bell keys - only my 62 bari has a double arm for the low C key (and the 32 and 52 series baris as well), as this is on a long arm - but I reckon it'll probably have worked just as well with the one. The only reason that I think the extra arms are added is due to the softer metal being used, and the greater risk of them twisting or going out of adjustment.
ISP near Chichester, United Kingdom.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: CJB
Date: 2006-05-24 17:04
I agree with the Yamaha suggestion if looking for a student instrument. They are solidly built and have good intonation.
Personally, if you have the money, I'd look at Yanigaswa. When I upgraded my alto a couple of years ago I tried Yamaha 62s and Yanigasawa 901s and 991s. The intonation was better on the Yamha but both the Yanis had far more flexibility and interest in tone colour. They were both lighter than the Yamaha which I found quite heavy. I was more than a little surprised to leave the shop the owner of a Yanigaswa 991 as I'm usually quite a fan of Yamaha instruments.
hmmm ISP is close but not quite right, at least it is within the correct city.
Post Edited (2006-05-24 17:05)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-05-24 17:33
Both the alto players in my band play Yanagisawa 992 altos - the bronze-bodied ones.
And I tried one of them when I had it in for adjustment - bad move when I played it as I really liked it (almost wished I'd bought one myself), but I do like my Yamaha 875EX alto loads so I'll stick with it.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2006-05-24 19:39
I wish that we'd hear back from Simon.
One concern I have about this discussion is whenever I've tried to go cheap and got a less expensive instrument it didn't take long before I regretted it. I then had an instrument with less market value than what I paid for it. Thus, when I sought to trade or sell the instrument in order to get a better quality horn I ended up losing money on the deal. Based upon these experiences, I learned that if one is serious about music and intends to use an instrument for a long time a case can be made for spending a bit more money up-front and getting a pro-level instrument.
Personally, I'm a big fan of vintage saxophones. Granted, one needs to have a certain level of knowledge about saxophone brands and models in order to know what to look for. Never the less, one can get an absolutely wonderful vintage horn for a price that's comparable to a new student-level model. There's absolutely no way that a modern student saxophone can compare to the quality of a good 1930's Buescher (as an example).
But, I understand that some players -- in particular, if they are of school age -- want a new shinny horn or how there can be pressure to play a particular brand.
Post Edited (2006-05-24 19:43)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Simon
Date: 2006-05-24 23:25
Hi Folks,
I thank you all for your valued responses.
I need the horn both for my self and my 10 year old son. I currently play clarinet and will be using the sax as a double. There was a question asked previously of the style of music played. I play eastern European, Macedonian in particular.
I had a go at a friends Yamaha student model and I was actually suprised how heavy it was. I don't know if it is my perception however a few years back a tried a selmer and I don't think it was this heavy. For some reason I thought Alto Saxes were quiet light.
I am now thinking vintage sax as Roger has stated above but I will have to get an understanding of various brands.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2006-05-25 01:18
Simon,
Some of the vintage saxes that I have owned or played for a good bit of time include The Martin Tenor and Alto, Big Bell Conn Tenor (I forget the model), Buescher 400 alto (the hat and cane model), and the King Super 20 alto. There are many others but you may find that newer saxes have intonation and ergonomics that for a much cheaper price, might satisfy more.
An overhaul might be required and to re-lacquer a vintage instrument is not preferred among many purists. New cases are usually required with most vintage instruments.
I'd spend the money on a newer (could be used) sax as mentiond above.
HRL
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-05-25 08:58
I know I'd like another King Super 20 alto (not the very early one, but the slightly later one, still with the pearl touches and this one has bell keys similar to Selmer BA/SBA in style).
When I began learning in the mid '80s the only student saxes on offer in the UK were mostly from Eastern Europe - B&S (Weltklang etc.) and Amati (Corton/Lafleur/King Lemaire/etc.), though Yamaha had their 23 series which were a lot more expensive than the E. German and Czech saxes, and Taiwanese saxes were only just started being sold here - Jupiter was probably the first Taiwanese make I knew of then, then the Buffet Evette followed (made by Jupiter) and the Taiwanese 'Elkhart' saxes - a copy of a Selmer MkVII distributed through Vincent Bach (who previously stamped the same name on B&S saxes which they once distributed as they were the Adler/Moennig and most things Markneukirchen-built agents).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2006-05-25 12:58
Simon,
With almost any musical instrument there are pros and cons to weigh and determine what makes the best sense to you. There are downsides to going the vintage route and you need to know about them.
As I mentioned before, it's a very great help to have a good working knowledge of the various vintage brands, models, years of manufacture, etc. This might scare off some players -- in particular, if they are new to the saxophone. On the positive side, the subject of vintage saxophones can become an exciting hobby and of personal interest to you. One can get a great deal of enjoyment trying the various vintage brands and models...and finding the one that especially feels like a good match for you. Searching through the Sax On The Web forum and Saxpics.com can be helpful in learning about vintage saxophones. The SOTW forum can also point you to other helpful resources.
Another issue is the condition of the instrument and if you have a repair tech in your area who is good with vintage saxophones. I am lucky in having a repair tech who geniunely loves to work on vintage saxophones. Therefore, it has not been a problem for me to purchase a vintage saxophone in good condition and then Eric will make some adjustments so the horn is then in truly great playing condition. If you have a repair tech who is really good with vintage saxophones then going the vintage route could be a reasonable option. On the other hand if you don't, then it might be best to stick with a modern horn.
Intonation can be a problem on SOME early vintage saxophones. Personally, I've had the best results intonation-wise with saxophones that were made in the 1930's through the early 50's. Late 20's can also be okay. The intonation of my 1934 Buescher New Aristocrat tenor is spot-on. Without question, it's superior to the intonation of several Selmer MK VI horns that I had over the years. It's very important that you check the intonation of a horn against a tuner and make sure the intonation is good before you buy the horn.
Even through there are pros and cons regarding vintage saxophones, there is an essential benefit for having one -- it's SOUND. I've played many vintage and modern saxophones over the years. It's been my experience that vintage saxophones such as Buescher, Martin, King, and Conn (to name only a few examples) have tonal qualities that cannot be found in a modern horn. I'm especially fond of Buescher. My '34 Buescher New Aristocrat has what I'd describe as a "ringing" sound that I have not found in a modern saxophone. When I first got this saxophone and brought it into my big band all of the guys in the sax section immediately heard a difference in my sound and asked me about the horn. Then, there is the quality of the instrument's metal and craftsmanship. The obviously high quality of the craftsmanship is one reason why these old horns are still great players after 70-80+ years. One can form a special bond with a vintage saxophone that's not quite the same with a brand new instrument. For me, I'll treasure my '34 Buescher for the rest of my life....and pass it down to my grandchildren.
Good luck to you! I hope that you're able to find a horn that meets your needs.
Roger
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-05-25 13:45
I'd take an ovehauled vintage sax any day over a new sax of anything less than professional grade. But I'm weird that way. I'd rather play my silver-plated 1925 King alto than anything below a top-of-the-line Paris Selmer, Yanagisawa or Keilwerth. Needless to say that, even including the cost of an overhaul (had I not done it myself) the total cost of the King would be less than 1/4 the price of a new pro horn. And the better vintage instruments are so well made that, having already lasted one or two lifetimes in good shape, they're likely to last a few more. Unlike most modern instruments, which are disposable or nearly so.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2006-05-25 14:33
DS,
"But I'm weird that way." I've always valued your opinion.
However, vintage saxes are great for all the reasons that are stated above. But you know what I went through to get a backup alto and tenor. I'm still strong on the fact that at a certain point "Technology Trumps Tradition" and the newer models are the best value. But then, you have the repair gift and can make things better than new.
HRL
PS I still covet your clarinet with the special side trill key.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-05-26 16:17
For a student model, I too would recommend Yamaha.
And if you can spend more, then a Yanagisawa. They are SO well designed and made, and play very well too. They are a joy to work on.
I don't recommend buying any decades-old sax unless you know with absolute certainty, that it is in a good state... pads resilient, pivots tight, tone holes level, corks secure. etc, and that the keys are easy to manipulate, particularly the low notes.
Otherwise you will have to spend for repairs to make it play well and reliably, potentially a LOT more than you paid for the instrument.
However a not-too-old second hand one of good repute is an excellent cheaper option.
IMO.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
