 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: beachbunny1332
Date: 2006-04-26 21:58
if anybody knows how to play E sharp,could u please refer back to me an i dont think i can use alternate fingurings on my Bflat clarinet.
www.deliveringonthepromise.com/jperez12
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Author: Grant
Date: 2006-04-26 22:03
Try F natural. It's enharmonic so uses the same fingering.
Peace on Earth and May You always have a reed that PLAYS.
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Author: ned
Date: 2006-04-27 02:57
''if anybody knows how to play E sharp,could u please refer back to me an i dont think i can use alternate fingurings on my Bflat clarinet.''
Ehhh..........?
E# = F, I thought anyone would know this.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2006-04-27 03:55
Post edited. e sharp = f natural.
Post Edited (2006-04-27 06:19)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-04-27 04:41
"E# = F, I thought anyone would know this."
He is probably a beginner, no need for that imho.
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Author: hartt
Date: 2006-04-27 05:05
Becca....
.........and a B# = C natural
if you can obtain a fingering chart (there are some here online) and they are usually at the front of Elementary / Intermediate level books, that would be a valuable tool for you
and clarnibass, you're right, there was no need for that....in anybody's opinion (except for ned's).
with 2 posts (probably q's) the lady apparently is a beginner.
That's what apologies are for, right, ned?
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Author: ned
Date: 2006-04-27 06:08
I had assumed from the substance of the original post, that the use of specific words and phrases such as ''E sharp'' and ''alternate fingerings'' would indicate that Mr/Ms beachbunny had at least a rudimentary grasp of theory and would recognise that some notes are enharmonic.
I don't think anyone has been insulted in the process.
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Author: diz
Date: 2006-04-27 06:57
E# does NOT equal F on string instruments ... to claify those smart alecs above. Only on percussion winds and brass (where you push a key or cover a hold, or bang a thing) ... depending on the situation they can be very subtly different in string playing.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2006-04-27 11:26
Although I think it's probably true that the person who asked the question is a beginner, it's a sophisticated question. My violin-playing husband does play E-sharp differently from F. I've only played exercises (never a music score that's "real music") in the key of C-sharp major (every note sharped), but when playing scales or exercises in that key, it's quite apparent that the scales sound subtly odd, even on the piano. I have relative pitch, not absolute pitch, but I think I could identify the sound of C-sharp major or its equivalent, D-flat major, not so much because they're out of tune (in the sense that bad playing sounds out of tune) but because they're different. There's a detectable "wrongness" about them.
As an amateur composer, I've given some thought to the utility of such an unfriendly key for creating a deliberately off-kilter sound quality, perhaps for a creepy or sinister effect in a film score, although I've never had occasion to try to write such music and have no reason to expect I could write it effectively. Come to think of it, I doubt that studio musicians, typically exceptional players but recording a soundtrack with little or no rehearsal, would welcome such a score!
But the beginning student needs a good fingering chart, such as the Mel Bay chart or the pull-out chart in the front of the first Rubank book, and also needs a brief, straightforward text on basic music theory, such as Dave Stewart's "The Musician's Guide to Reading and Writing Music" (San Francisco: Miller Freeman, 1999 trade paperback, currently in print). If at all possible, take a few piano lessons. I may have a big bias here, because I play the piano and I love it, but I think all musicians should take at least a few keyboard lessons. There's no instrument as good as the piano for making the relationships between the notes and the key signatures both visible and audible.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-04-27 11:27
But Diz, a skilled and astute clarinet (or any other instrumentalist) player will ALSO humour those notes to be slightly different, just as much as a string player does, depending on the situation, and as long as there is no instrument present with a FIXED tempered scale such as a piano.
However such discussion in the context of the level of knowledge of the original poster, is downright confusing, as is the use of the term 'enharmonic'.
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Author: William
Date: 2006-04-27 13:42
Also, Fb = E & Cb = B There, I think that about covers the weird enharmonic spellings that rational composers should always avoid using.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-27 13:50
I know if I'm playing Baroque music (on oboe) I like to make the leading note smaller than a semitone in relation to the tonic to give that sense you're going to finish on the tonic (and also a luscious clashing 7-8 suspension/resolution on chord I) - but Baroque rarely delves into extreme key signatures.
If writing music in sharp keys with chromatics or accidentals I do use (and would rather see) a B# and E# preceeding a C# or F# rather than having cancelled out an existing C# to a C natural which is followed by a C#.
And in flat keys a Cb or Fb next to a Bb or Eb where it's called for. It's just neater and easier to read and see they're different notes as B nat. and Bb are on the same line or space, whereas Cb and Bb are obviously on different lines or spaces, and more of a graphic representation or relation of thes two notes.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-04-27 14:41
Diving in where "Angels Fear to Tread", having little knowledge of musical theory, I looked up "enharmonic" etc in a couple of pocket dictionaries, which seem to say, " two practically-identical notes" written differently for "scale in-tuneness?" reasons. I'm sure there are more-detailed explanations available so, Please HELP. AM thots, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-04-27 15:02
"Also, Fb = E & Cb = B There, I think that about covers the weird enharmonic spellings that rational composers should always avoid using"
What would you rather see, C# Cnatural C#, or C# B# C#. Let's say you are in the very common scale of C#.
I'm playing a really beautiful piece right now that has D# F, not very pretty. Changing the F to E# in that situation would be even less comfortable, and changing the D# to Eb is even worse. Should I avoid playing this piece, and should the composer avoid writing it?
It is good that some composers always avoid using this as you suggest, because some music has its greatness in how well it is written for the instrument (i.e. a good scale), but some music is also great and is necessary to use weird enharmonics like these. In my opinion both cases are rational, each for their own reasons.
About E# being different than F and everything else that Gordon added, that depends on philosophy, culture, type of music, and a lot more.
For example, I don't play like that, and try to be as equal as possible. I know many very good players on a lot of different instruments that also do not make notes higher or lower depending on the situation. I also know many players that do it.
Post Edited (2006-04-27 15:11)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-04-27 20:37
whoa, a lot of theory here!
A pragmatic way to look at this is to glance at a piano keyboard. The sharpened note is played by hitting the key to the right of the named note --usually a black key.
There are two places in each octave where the black key is missing from the space between two white keys: between E&F and between B&C.
The rule still applies: play the next note "up" the keyboard.
Similarly with flats, play the key to the left of the named note --even if it is not black.
Now, if I could only apply this through my fingers to the C# minor melodic scale. ARRGGGHH
Bob Phillips
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2006-04-27 22:06
quote:
weird enharmonic spellings that rational composers should always avoid using
Why should composers avoid using these spellings? A lot of the time they make more sense anyway, and I have no problem reading them at all, even when sight reading.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: Grant
Date: 2006-04-27 22:24
My harmony professor said it's a grammer thing. In F# melodic minor you wouldn't write D# F F# it's D# E# F#. Makes sense to me.
Peace on Earth and May You always have a reed that PLAYS.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-04-27 22:43
Don, a little more, seeing you ask. (From my very limited knowledge; corrections welcome :-)
Yes, there are indeed SLIGHT differences between the pitch of notes that have different names, eg E# and F, F# and Gb, A# and Bb, F## and G, etc, etc. The name given to a particular note, gives an indication of the nuance of pitch that it should have in the particular scale in which you are playing.
However if we had a different key for each of these very similar notes on the piano, then the piano would be impossibly wide to play on.
And it would be ludicrous to have different fingerings on an instrument such as clarinet, because the differences themselves, are smaller than the discrepancies in tuning of the instrument itself, and far smaller than the effects on pitch of temperature, embouchure, etc.
Just imagine a guitar with frets, say a mm apart, to differentiate between G# and Ab! Impossible to play!
So we just tune keyboards at a compromised pitch, somewhere between what the two notes SHOULD be, using the same key for both notes. The result is the "tempered" scale.
However capable musicians, who play on instruments where the pitch can be 'humoured' by the player, can alter the pitch of notes, especially with longer notes, to correct these discrepancies. Capable singers will definitely make allowances. Say I am singing in a choir, and my note is F#, but then there is a chord progression into a different key, so that all the other parts make significant note changes while my note merely changes form F# to Gb. I will find myself HAVING to alter my pitch slightly in order to stay in tune. In chamber music without a keyboard, a clarinetist may very well find the same thing.
A harp has 7 pedals, one for each note in the scale. Each pedal has three positions. If I raise the F pedal, then all the F strings will be shortened to play F#. If I lower the G pedal, then all the G strings will be lengthened to play Gb. On a correctly tuned harp, these notes will be different.
Some organs are tuned to a true pitch, but the result is that they can play accurately only in one scale. Other scales will have the odd note that is slightly off. And SOME scales will sound decidedly peculiar.
It was quite normal for harpsichord players to tune accurately for one key, and then to retune appropriate strings before the next piece in a different key.
In practise, many musicians, especially if they do a lot of playing with keyboard instruments, where the notes cannot be humoured, we have become so used to the compromise of the tempered scale that it sounds quite normal. However, music that is played in a true scale has quite a different 'feel/atmosphere' to it.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-27 23:13
"A harp has 7 pedals, one for each note in the scale. Each pedal has three positions. If I raise the F pedal, then all the F strings will be shortened to play F#. If I lower the G pedal, then all the G strings will be lengthened to play Gb. On a correctly tuned harp, these notes will be different."
My Salvi (Arianna) harp is tuned to equal tempermant (as all double action pedal harps are) so for eg. Eb and D# are exactly the same note - if it wasn't then things would sound pretty messy. And the big diminished 7th glisses (eg. C, D#, Eb, F#, Gb, A, B#) would be dire.
Certain pieces call for an Ab to become a G# if an A natural is called for - take the opening of 'Adagio of Spartacus and Phrygia' - there's an Ab pedal note in the LH throughout the opening (and the oboe solo) while the chord progression changes, but an A natural crops up so a G# has to be substituted for t, if Ab and G# weren't the same pitch this will be too noticeable, and impractical to change the A pedal from Ab-An-Ab within one bar as well as the danger of getting the buzz from the A string.
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Author: ned
Date: 2006-04-28 02:55
''Yes, there are indeed SLIGHT differences between the pitch of notes that have different names, eg E# and F, F# and Gb, A# and Bb, F## and G, etc, etc. The name given to a particular note, gives an indication of the nuance of pitch that it should have in the particular scale in which you are playing.''
This is the basis of the tempered scale of course, as you mention, but the original question was regarding the correct fingering for E#, and tempered or otherwise, the fingering for this note is as for ''F''.
So, call it what you will, the note will sound exactly the same, because it IS exactly the same.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-04-28 09:59
Sorry if the harp thing is incorrect. I was told this by harpist, and believed it. Perhaps there are different types of harp.
Ned, you are quite correct, but I was responding to Don's request a few posts back.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-28 10:22
I think the single action harps (made between the mid 1700s - 1810 with one row of mechanism) could be tuned to the various non-equal tempered scales that may have still been in use by then, though equal temperment was certainly being used by that time.
Possibly Erard's double action harp is one of the few instruments that has been the least altered since 1810 - various makers have improved production techniques and mechanisms, but the basic design and construction is still in essence the same as Erard set out.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2006-04-28 11:21
And now that we've scared the Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-sharp! out of the original questioner....
But seriously, for all the complexities that arise for for composers and advanced students, a beginner only needs (but definitely does need) a good fingering chart and a chart showing all of the scales and key signatures. Your local music store will have both of these and they'll instantly settle questions such as the one you asked. And although I'm sure you didn't want or need this lengthy exegesis on music theory and pitch compromises, you were so right to figure out what you didn't know and ask the question. I hope the answers haven't discouraged you from asking more questions.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-04-28 14:05
I just ran into a sequence of phrases in the Wrong Note Rag section of Wonderful Town where the same notes were being played in two different keys, with the notation reflecting "how it is done" in each of the keys. So, in one sequence you were playing F naturals, while in the next you were playing E# and so on.
Odd once you start analyzing it after playing through it, but with fair to middlen reading skills it doesn't come as a surprise. The part as a whole has "more sharps than a hospital dumpster" (to quote someone else on this service), something that's common to many show books.
Regarding the tempered scale to which we are (for the most part) firmly wedded, I doubt that more than one clarinet player in a hundred understands the principles behind it, and the effects on music as a whole. Sometimes, you just push the buttons and blow...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-04-28 14:14
TKS, in particular to Gordon and Lelia, I felt that this thread should not pass into oblivion without a bit of exploration/explanation of the Tempered Scale [compromise] and the Just [?harmonic?] Scale [?theoreetically correct?, since based on the 12th root of 2 rule for chromatic "spacing"] . Prob we need to go back to Helmholst, but I recall some discussion of the peculiarity that, in the original example [E# vs F nat.], E# being "calculated" from E Nat is different from F Nat/Gb "calc?" from G Nat [by use of 2 X the 12th root of 2]. I believe that this is why E# is VERY slightly diff. from Gb [higher??] and can be compensated for by vocal, lipped wind , and variable string instruments by what may be called "humoring" or in our cl case, "lipping". It strikes me [now] that this may be an example of "reductio ad absurdum". GBK and MC may wish to delete all of my above [early morning] thots. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-28 14:55
I seem to remember the Richard Strauss Serenade in Eb (Op.7) has the 1st clarinet playing a held C which changes to a B# - probably looks better on the score (presumably to show the shift in harmony), but in the clarinet part I don't think it should change as it's a held note anyway.
But I won't argue with Richard Strauss.
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Author: Markael
Date: 2006-04-28 15:27
This is getting ridiculous.
The reason that a note is spelled B# instead of C has to do with chord structure, not tuning.
Why should a B# be tuned differently from a C just because of the difference in name, especially in equal temperament? Hold on: let me finish.
If you are going to make adjustments in tuning, then you should do it on all twelve pitches, not just on B, C, E, and F. An A played in a passage in the key of F, for instance, might differ from an A played in the key of D.
Or perhaps some of you are saying this: Most of the burden for pitch adjustments in going to different keys falls on the shoulders of, what are on the piano, the five black keys, and the four white keys with white neighbors. That is, everybody but D, G, and A.
Here is why this topic frustrates me so much:
I used to sing in a barbershop chorus, which had a very good and effective director who didn’t have a lot of music theory background. We sang one song where either the lead or tenor part (I forget which) went from an Ab to a G# and back at the end.
I said that the note was the same. My director said that veteran barbershoppers would see a difference and make subtle adjustments in the pitch. I let it go at that, but I think he was wrong.
The song was in Ab. The composer wrote G# because he wanted to write an “E” chord instead of “Fb.” (Unlike Scott Joplin, who used Fb in the Maple Leaf Rag.)
In any case, the director was right that true barbershoppers would need to adjust the pitch, but it wouldn’t be the guys singing the Ab/G#, which was a held note. It would be the other guys.
Good orchestra players probably make similar kinds of adjustments. But nobody I know has the capacity to reason all that out on the fly. It is done instinctively and unconsciously, and on every pitch in our chromatic scale.
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Author: Markael
Date: 2006-04-28 15:33
By the way, if you ever want to learn how to make a watch, just ask the Clarinet Bulletin Board what time it is.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-28 16:12
You'll know for a fact it won't be a digital watch when it comes to it.
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Author: jbone72
Date: 2006-04-28 16:37
i'm looking for a list to be able to help my 6th daughter learn finer points of clarinet playing. hello. I can't beleive you just spent 2 day discussing E#. What a bunch of NERDS. Have a good day guys
jason Smith
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-04-28 20:16
jbone72 wrote:
> i'm looking for a list to be able to help my 6th daughter learn
> finer points of clarinet playing. hello. I can't beleive you
> just spent 2 day discussing E#. What a bunch of NERDS. Have a
> good day guys
Interestingly enough, this would be a fine thing for a 6th grader to learn - it is one of the finer points of music and music terminology.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-04-28 20:44
I agree, Mark, but it is an info "overload", good later comments, but I'm sure jbone72 didn't realize that this is another [of our] "cans of worms". Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-04-28 23:20
I cannot see what the problem is.
The original poster got a prompt answer, at a level that was appropriate, and then the discussion developed to a greater depth, for those interested, actually in response to certain related questions.
If you always want a super-simple answer, and no chance to further your perception and experience, then just buy a dictionary designed for 3rd graders, and limit your life to its contents.
The downside is that then you would never have even started playing clarinet.
Some of us like to grow just a little; some of us like to grow in more depth. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with a thread assisting with both. Spare me from a forum which is restricted to the very superficial!
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