 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: YCL-450
Date: 2006-04-08 01:28
Is it ok to leave my clarinet assembled and just remove the mouthpiece? I don't plan on taking it anywhere anytime soon so I thought I could just leave it assembled and place it somewhere safe.
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Author: Carol Dutcher
Date: 2006-04-08 02:05
My thought regarding this is that your clarinet might get stuck together. I did it when my clarinet was new and ended up having to take it to the repair shop to get unstuck. So, with that in mind, you might not want to take the chance. Weather changes do mighty strange things to our clarinets.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-04-08 02:26
Although changing a tenon cork is simple and can be done as a do-it-yourself project, keeping the clarinet assembled for extended periods will compress the cork. Disassembling the clarinet will give the cork time to "recover" back to it's original thickness.
More important than the tenon corks, if you keep the clarinet assembled, even with swabbing, water will still accumulate in the tenon joints. The tenons should always be wiped dry after playing.
Do not let the water accumulate and remain in the tenons.
Finally, a clarinet which stays assembled for weeks (months?) at a time will probably collect excess dust around the keywork ...GBK
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-04-08 03:24
I agree.......leaving the instrument together does cause the tenon corks to not fit anymore. This is a pity as I find the biggest impediment to practicing is putting the instrument together. If you do leave your instrument together and the corks compress, the problem can be remedied by VERY CAREFUL apllication of the following solution to swell the corks:
1. Wipe off all excess cork grease
2. Soak the tenons up to the top of the corks in water for a few seconds.
3. Take a flat piece of metal (I use a pad slick but a stainless steel butter knife works well, too........don't plan on using the knife for anything else but clarinet work afterwards......you will likley discolor or otherwise harm it.
4. Dip the knife in water so that water adheres to the blade....this is important.
5. Wrap the handle of the knife in a cloth to insulate it, wrapping tight and leaving no loose ends
6. Heat the knife until the water bubbles off.....I use a propane torch, but the flames from a kitchen burner also work well...cigarette lighters work less well as they tend to deposit some soot on the knife...If you are not an adult make sure a responsible parent or other adult supervises
7. Apply the knife to the cork. The heat and the water will work together to swell the cork. I tend to apply the knife to about 1/4 of the cork at one time and work my way around. Go slowly, and constantly test for fit. There should be enough cork grease left on the cork, so don't grease it again.
DO NOT TRY THIS THE NIGHT BEFORE A BIG AUDITION OR CONCERT AS THERE IS A CHANCE THE TENON CORK WILL FALL OFF. If you are in any doubt, shim the joint with cigarette paper and take the instrument to a competent repair person.
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Author: YCL-450
Date: 2006-04-08 05:00
Thanks for the advice. I will just disassemble it when I'm done playing. That will avoid any problems.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2006-04-08 05:05
aside from cork and water issues, it's safest tucked away in its case at night or when not in use. Imagine, which way would you prefer to knock it over?
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2006-04-08 06:16
To avoid cork stuck problem, it may be an idea to change joint cork to synthetic. There was a discussion on synthetic cork on this BBS in the year 2001. Five years since then. Somebody may have discovered superior material to Neoprene.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=51476&t=51215
BTW I feel natural cork became poor in quality in these days. Too many big porous holes and poor color.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-04-08 14:34
YCL: Many past discussions on this idea will be found using the Search function here where you will discover it's another controversial subject with a "it all depends" conclusion. My own vision is that it's like leaving your Honda in the driveway, running with the keys in the ignition.
Bob Draznik
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-04-08 15:27
Leaving the clarinet assembled can cause many problem with the worst being cracking. Unfortunately I learned this from experience.
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2006-04-08 22:48
I'm wondering if you are using a student clarinet though.. in which case I highly doubt that there is a problem with leaving it out (besides perhaps corks). If it's plastic (or greenline?) it may not matter that much, so long as you use a good stand and don't put it in a hgh traffic area in my opinion (which may very well be worng).
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-04-08 23:50
Sean.Perrin wrote:
> I'm wondering if you are using a student clarinet though.. in
> which case I highly doubt that there is a problem with leaving
> it out (besides perhaps corks). If it's plastic (or greenline?)
> it may not matter that much,
If the clarinet is a Greenline model it is not a student instrument ...GBK
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2006-04-09 01:01
You are correct! Sorry the second sentence was in many ways unrelated to the previous sentence, but I said greenline because it is some composite and I was not sure it would react exactly the same as normal wood. My inclusion of it int he sentence was negotiable, hence the question mark, and the brackets.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: YCL-450
Date: 2006-04-09 01:56
Sean.Perrin wrote:
> You are correct! Sorry the second sentence was in many ways
> unrelated to the previous sentence, but I said greenline
> because it is some composite and I was not sure it would react
> exactly the same as normal wood. My inclusion of it int he
> sentence was negotiable, hence the question mark, and the
> brackets.
>
It's wood. I think grinadilla.
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Author: ClariTone
Date: 2006-04-09 03:48
YCL-450
I take it you were refering to your clarinet and not the Buffet Greenline clarinet. So if you are using the clarinet model your user name implies, then YES it is grenadilla wood.
Clayton
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Author: YCL-450
Date: 2006-04-09 07:04
Author: GBK (---.dyn.optonline.net)
Date: 2006-04-09 02:27
YCL-450 wrote:
> It's wood. I think grinadilla.
Not exactly:
http://www.buffet-crampon.com/instruments/instruments_detail.asp?ID=108 ...GBK
But mine is not a Buffet, it's a Yamaha and I can see the grain. It might be better if it were greenline though because that stuff is supose to be more stable.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-09 10:10
It may be stable in some ways, but it's brittle - wood has a natural inherent tensile strength to it, but Greenline and plastics don't as they're composites - and the weakest part of any composite clarinet is the middle tenon and the area across the thumb bush and the RH first finger hole.
Your YCL-450 is the entry level grenadilla clarinet that Yamaha produce. Maintained well, wooden clarinets of all levels will last for years.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-04-09 12:13
"wood has a natural inherent tensile strength to it, but Greenline and plastics don't as they're composites "
I would be interested ito know your source of wood tensile strength data.
Bob Draznik
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-04-09 12:33
Bob,
found two interesting documents: http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf2003/stark03a.pdf and http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/techline/melt-blended-wood-fiber.pdf
The insight that parallel fibers or layers are stronger than homogeneous/cristalline/amorph/tufty structures is not new; think of plywood, steel cables and the like. Even carbon fibers "win" only when processed in long parallel strands.
I'm still unsure how much sawdust (grenadilla wood powder, ie really tiny particles) adds strength and stability to resin-based materials. And I'm still unsure what exactly makes greenline so good - is it the material, is it the workmanship and finishing, is it the perceived value (hey, it contains natural wood) etc. I do not mean to belittle Buffet's achievements in that area, don't get me wrong.
--
Ben
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2006-04-09 21:43
interesting... I would have thought that the clarinet would still expand and contract in the same way, just that the carbon fibres would keep the instrument from actually developling cracks. Afterall, the Wood material is still wood, and will behave in the same fashion as if it were part of a "normal" clarinet.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-04-09 21:48
Sean.Perrin wrote:
> Afterall, the Wood material is still wood, and will
> behave in the same fashion as if it were part of a "normal"
> clarinet.
How does the wood behave in a "normal" clarinet?
Wood powder/sawdust does not have close to the same physical characteristics as the original wood ...
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-04-09 23:01
I haven't seen it myself, but I've had two repair techs (whom I trust) tell me that they have seen a Greenline crack.
I personally played one throughout my military band career in rather harsh circumstances with nary a crack.
-Randy
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Author: hans
Date: 2006-04-09 23:37
YCL-450,
With reference to the original question, I bought my current clarinet new in 1988. I disassemble (and dry) it after every use and have not had to replace any tenon corks. The bore gets oiled when it starts to lose its shine. My repair tech has described it as being in "pristine" condition (no cracks).
Your results may differ, since causes of cracking include a large Luck element.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-04-10 00:04
"I haven't seen it myself, but I've had two repair techs (whom I trust) tell me that they have seen a Greenline crack."
A Greenline clarinet can be treated as plastic, with respect to its physical properties.
With timber instruments, splits are to do with the timber having grain which is inherently weak in two planes, stresses caused by the moisture gradient through the timber wall, and local stresses from 'blemishes' in the grain structure.
None of these affect plastic clarinets. However a plastic clarinet can certainly crack - break - especially across the base of a tenon, if it is subject to excessive strain, such as when they are sat on or dropped.
I have also seen plastic clarinets crack where there is a metal insert, say at the thumb tone hole...
If the plastic gets very cold, it shrinks - a lot more than metal does - so the hole in the plastic gets too small for the metal inside it, creating enormous stress [correction - thanks Bob], which cracks the plastic. This could also happen if the insert is installed by using a force fit.
Stresses could also be induced in plastic if the TEMPERATURE on one side of the wall was a lot different from that on the other. IMO it is unlikely that these would cause a reasonably resilient plastic to fail. Think of what sudden temperature changes are needed to get a far more brittle material, glass, to crack.
Post Edited (2006-04-10 15:51)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-04-10 15:14
One of the beauties of this BB is how threads can evolve and be educational at the same time. I don't feel comfortable about "plastics" shrinking more than metal...will check it out. And, from a strictly technical standpoint....strain is physical movement while stress is what causes it.
But here's a practical solution to YCL's query: Buy an elcheapo plastic horn, glue all the joints and leave it on a peg ready for practice. Use your good horn just for serious work.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-10 15:38
Bob, I'm purely going by what I've experienced working with instruments made from various exotic woods (Grenadilla, Kingwood, Cocobolo and Honduran Rosewood) and different plastics/synthetics (ABS, PVC, Delrin, Ebonite and Bakelite) - not what I've read, so through working with these materials and subjecting them to normal everyday use does show how they behave. There's only so much that can be learnt from reading up on them, but the real test is putting them into practice.
From my point of view, the biggest problem with plastic instruments is the fact that plastic will shrink in all dimentions - then when we add metal keywork to this the problems show up. So to have a reliable plastic clarinet that will work under both room temperature and colder, there has to be a fair amount of end play between long key barrels relative to their length - so the LH F/C lever will need up to 1mm of play between pillars for it to function in cold conditions - longer keys (as in alto, bass and contra~ clarinets) will need much more - sometimes over 2mm of end play in order for them not to bind solid.
Wooden bodied instruments don't noticeably shrink lengthways, but they do shrink widthways, so cross keys (clarinet trills, speaker and throat A keys and too many oboe keys to mention) need a certain amount of end play between pillars in order for them not to bind.
With saxes and flutes (as well as metal clarinets of all sizes) the tolerances btween pillars and keys can me made much finer, almost eliminating any play as metals being the good conductors they are will expand and contract very uniformly.
Here's an experiment - put a plastic clarinet and a flute or soprano sax in the 'fridge for about half an hour, then see which will still play without any keys binding when you take it out - and how long it will take the one that binds up to function again.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-04-10 15:52)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-04-10 16:00
Chris:
so the LH F/C lever will need up to 1mm of play between pillars for it to function in cold conditions - longer keys (as in alto, bass and contra~ clarinets) will need much more - sometimes over 2mm of end play in order for them not to bind solid.
But don't the rods shrink too when cold? What if both the metal and plastic have similar (if not equal) temperature coefficients?
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-10 16:11
Plastic moves at a faster rate to metal and metal is far more stable than plastic - so mixing the two materials is really a recipe for disaster unless there's room for expansion/contraction designed in where they both interact.
The best thing to do is try out the experiment - get a plastic clarinet bottom joint and tighten up the LH F/C lever point screws so it still works at room temperature, but there's little or no play between pillars, then bung it in the 'fridge. I can guarantee it will bind solid - ie. it won't return as once pressed while it's cold.
And how do you get the text in italics?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-04-11 10:50)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-04-10 16:20
Bob wrote "I don't feel comfortable about "plastics" shrinking more than metal...will check it out.
Coefficient of thermal expansion for metals (steel, brass, silver, etc) is typically around 20 units (i.e. ppm/degreeC), whereas plastics are typically 60 to 120 units. However I note that certain epoxies can be lower. I wonder just what it is for the Greenline composite.
For ABS, it is about 90. So a temperature change of say 20 C for a section of bass clarinet under a metal rod say 50- mm long, would produce a change in length of 0.9 mm. A Yamaha engineer from Japan once told me that this is why they were reluctant for so long to produce a plastic bass clarinet.
Bassoons have some rather long rods. For lightness, most plastic bassoons are made from polypropylene, whose coefficient is around 200 units. No wonder the pivots are made so sloppy.
Bob wrote "... And, from a strictly technical standpoint....strain is physical movement while stress is what causes it."
Sorry about that slip. Thanks for the correction Bobd. I have edited the post.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-04-10 17:03
Chris:
And how do you get the text in italics?
"[ i ] text [ / i ]" (without the spaces in between) will get you italics, same with "b" instad of "i" will get you bold. Check out the help page for further tweaks.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-10 17:05
Cheers Ben.
Fortunately for bassoons, most of the keys on the tenor joint and bass joint are mounted between pillars crossing the body so the barrels are short, but the long joint C# barrel and those on the butt joint are the ones that needs an incredible amount of slop.
I did ask a while back on here if Fox ever made a transparant plastic contra (they made a 'natural' polyropylene and transparent bassoon), but forgot about the keywork - on contras it's pretty much all long barrels between pillars some distance apart - so the lot would pack up with the slightest breeze, not to mention the amount of slop needed would be impossible to achieve unless the pivot screws (as point screws would be useless) were mega long.
Here's the thread, and some nice pictures of unusual plastic Fox bassoons:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=208327&t=208047
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-04-10 17:15)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-04-10 17:08
Gordon:
For ABS, it is about 90. So a temperature change of say 20 C for a section of bass clarinet under a metal rod say 50- mm long, would produce a change in length of 0.9 mm. A Yamaha engineer from Japan once told me that this is why they were reluctant for so long to produce a plastic bass clarinet.
Why not use a "telescopic" section in the rod that contains a tiny spring?
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-10 17:12
HAHAHA!
Though I shouldn't laugh - Selmer have done this with their SA80II saxes since the mid '80s - it takes out the slop from their badly fitted keys!
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-04-10 22:42
The spring-loaded slugs in the end of rods, that receive pivot point screws, is what the model name "Super-Action 80" refers to. It is incorporated in both Series II and Series III models.
It is not often I have a chance to stick up for Selmer; I am more often grizzling about their sins of ommisiion or commision.
I have worked on a lot of these saxes and in this particular case, I disagree with the above post.
I find that there is high precision between the keys and the posts on these saxes.
However precision-adjusting the fit of a pivot point screw into the end of a key's rod must be one of the most time consuming tasks during sax manufacture. I consider that the reason for Selmer incorporating this spring-loaded system is that this adjustment is automatic.
The only down-side I have found for this system is that spring loaded bearings have a little more friction. The fit of the slugs is high precision, and neither the spring nor the slug corrode. They don't spring away to get lost when a key is removed. (I once ordered "20 only" spares, so they shipped me 20 sets of about 36 = 720!! Sigh!)
However I am appalled at the way Selmer has seriously compromised the strength of the pivot rod sharing the Eb and low C keys, by cutting it in the centre and incorporating a spring in there. Having a spring in BOTH ends would not have compromised the strength of this area vulnerable to knocks. To add to the mess, the keys often (ex-factory) bind on the 1/2 rods, so that there is unnecessary friction, rods against spring.
Post Edited (2006-04-10 22:44)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-10 23:39
You've obviously seen the better made SA80IIs - pretty much all the new ones I worked on (in the UK) back in the mid to late '90s were dire - pillars wouldn't line up, especially the ones that held the LH main action, and not only that - the steel had to pass through a hole in the pillar at the top - but it didn't line up so the steel had to be bent to get it out.
But the spring-loaded keys such as the high E and F# as well as the bell keys and RH 3 key had so much end play (over 1mm in several instances) the ends of the bearings were proud - and if it wasn't for the bearings the keys would be rattling around.
The worst ones I worked on were the black lacquered ones. I've seen too many bad examples of these saxes and that has certainly damaged their reputation in my eyes. For a company such as Selmer that is well respected, they really didn't do much for their reputation by badly finished saxes.
I see on the Series III (and possibly the Reference models as well) the low C and Eb share a floating steel (mounted between point screws and passing through the bridged Eb barrels and the C key barrel) rather than a threaded steel as on a MkVI or Yamaha - so at least both the C and Eb have the same leverage at the touchpiece end.
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-04-11 03:37
So how does the hard rubber we all know and love fit in the realm of expansion coefficients?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-11 07:04
I did set up an oboe with an ebonite top joint with a similar amount of end play that I would have done with a PVC top joint to be on the safe side - though the biggest problem with ebonite was the sulphur in it turning the silver plating black.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-04-11 10:04
Chris, a few years ago now, in a shower of rotten eggs and tomatoes, I repeatedly exposed in a few internet forums my huge disappointment in the way Selmer set up their hallowed instruments, giving very specific detail, as you have done. After what you write, it seems possible that my country is now on the list that does not receive the apprentice work, the Friday/Monday work, and the returned-to-factory instruments. So you know what you have to do. :-)
Have you noticed that that rod through the Eb & C keys is sprung-loaded from the centre, where it is cut to accommodate the spring... Just the place where the assembly needs the strength of an intact rod? Or perhaps Selmer have finally seen this engineering error and stopped doing it.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-11 10:43
I think the UK is the primary target for factory seconds from various companies judging by what I've seen come from the distributors - I'm certainly not a Francophobe as I rate their golden age of instrument making very high, as well as their golden age of car manufacture - as well as owned probably the last of the great Citroens ever built (CX 2500 GTi Turbo 2) which I thoroughly enjoyed driving full time for the 9000+ miles I had it for until it's untimely demise, as well as playing solely on French made clarinets.
The last one I worked on fairly recently (a year old SA80III alto) had both keys mounted on a solid steel rod (countersunk at both ends for the point screws), so the point screws could be tightened without the keys binding even if the steel itself did - but then overtightening the point screws can bow the steel slightly and cause the keys to act sluggish or stay put once pressed (especially the low C key).
I haven't seen the spring-loaded steel yet, though I'm glad you've warned me of it's use - I'll be looking out for this.
I think the Series III is over engineered - there's too many extra parts performing the same task that one single part can do and has done well previously - a well adjusted octave key fork can do the job perfectly, I don't see why they need an adjustable one - the simplest design is always the best, and most reliable.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-04-11 14:09
I totally agree with your last paragraph.
I wonder if all those adjusters are there just so they can be used as selling hype to the gullible who can be talked into a need that isn't really there.
(That sentence sounded a bit Pooh Bear-ish to me :-)
I think the bass clarinet is over-engineered too. Perhaps instead, more attention could have been given to excessive friction in some rather critical locations.
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