 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: pmgoff78
Date: 2006-04-07 19:42
I was hoping I could get some feedback on wooden bells and the different types of wood they are produced with.
Concerning the type of wood, I saw a post where Tom said he had a Tulipwood bell for his C Clarinet. Is there REALLY a difference between the different types of wood, or is that aspect purely cosmetic? Tulipwood is pretty, I just don't know if it does anything.
On Soprano Clarinet I'm wondering how far the influence lies (given that the bell is at the bottom of the instrument.) Some may perceive them to be a waste of time and money and others seem to enjoy them. I figured I should ask before I start shopping around.
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Author: Tyler
Date: 2006-04-07 20:08
If you go to a major clarinet convention like the ICA one in Atlanta or the Oklahoma Symposium this summer, Backun Musical Products usually has several tables of their products, like rosewood/grenadilla/cocobolo barrels and bells, which are available for immediate trial. If you have your clarinet put together, you can actually stand there and try some of them out.
I'm sure others on this board will tell you the same, that the material out of which a bell is made does affect the sound, however, not NEARLY to the extent that the interior dimensions of the bell affect it.
Whether a CNC-machined, mulitple-curve bell made out of exotic wood is worth $700 is up to you. You'll have to try a bunch. In my limited experience trying different bells, I have found that many of them produce only subtle improvements in my tone; however, I remember one or two that I tried at last year's OK Symposium which produced more significant improvements, or, at least, changes in my tone. For me, at my stage of clarinet proficiency, I feel like I have room to improve in other areas which will more directly help my sound rather than buying expensive bells. For example, I still have a great deal to learn about reeds and mouthpieces, and while I am getting much better in dealing with embouchure issues, I have plenty more to learn still. Maybe after another year or two of work in these areas, I will consider something like special bells to be a worthwhile investment. Backun's products seem to get great reviews from those who buy them. Who knows....?
-Tyler
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-04-07 20:19
Tyler wrote:
> I'm sure others on this board will tell you the same, that the
> material out of which a bell is made does affect the sound,
> however, not NEARLY to the extent that the interior dimensions
> of the bell affect it.
How exactly do you differentiate from the dimensions (which vary, even after CNC machining if you don't hold a few variables constant, like humidity and temperature at least) and the wood?
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Author: pmgoff78
Date: 2006-04-07 20:42
I think he's saying that the design is more important than the material. That doesn't make the material unimportant, just less important. Much like Melody and Countermelody perhaps? I'm guessing here.
I guess we've knocked out dimensions. I'd never understand measurements and such...so maybe we'll stick with materials. What materials do you like and why? What do you find that they do for you?.....or don't?
Thanks
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-04-07 21:16
pmgoff78 wrote:
> That doesn't make the material unimportant, just
> less important.
Does it? Can we conclude that at all?
We may be able to (and do) conclude that a clarinet with bell 'A' sounds somewhat different than the same clarinet with bell 'B', but that is a far cry from determining what is creating that difference. For all we've said, it might be the color that makes the difference.
We absolutely certainly know (from experiments) that the shape and volume of the bell will make some difference, but I'm wondering about the leap of faith that says the material of the bell makes a difference. It might be true, it might not be, but thinking it is so doesn't make it so.
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Author: pmgoff78
Date: 2006-04-07 21:29
I was just trying to be the peacemaker. Sorry, I started such a heated conversation. I didn't realize this was such a touchy subject. I was simply guessing at the point that was being made.
If someone has experience with a material that they like that would be most appreciated.
Thanks
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-04-07 23:02
To be quite blunt, many of the clarinetists I heard trying custom bells at the most recent ICA convention, would have better spent their money on $700 worth of lessons.
Sorry - it had to be said ...GBK
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-04-07 23:07
pmgoff78 wrote:
> I was just trying to be the peacemaker.
Why? There was no one at war. The question still stands. I see you've already jumped to a conclusion:
"If someone has experience with a material that they like that would be most appreciated."
What is the basis for your belief that material is important?
It's an honest question, meant to be argumentative in the classical sense.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-04-07 23:24
What is the basis for your belief that material is important?
Well - we're spoon-fed that "truth" from day one. Everyone's saying that plastic was good for students but a pro needed wood. Upon drilling a bit deeper, many will admit that it weren't so much the material but rather the finish that made the difference.
I came to the conclusion that it's mostly an academic discussion (don't get me wrong, I love academic discussions) and in the end (ceteris paribus) it boils down to a matter of taste, money and - sorry - peer pressure.
I live in the best of both worlds - I have a wooden clarinet with a plastic bell. And this month I'll get a plastic clarinet with a wooden bell.
--
Ben
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-04-08 03:22
(Disclaimer - I am maker of the Forte' C clarinet)
I will only comment on changes to the internal dimensions of the bell. Some clarinet bells incorporate an innovation, I'm told by some that was first seen in the 1920's, with a dimensional disruption - Backun uses it, the Selmer Signature A uses it, and we are now using it on the Forte' C clarinet. What the heck does a dimensional disruption mean - an enlarged chamber or tapers within the inside flair radius of the bell of proportioned dimensions and placement. We call it TRAC - Tuned Resonance Acoustic Chamber in our innovation. The purpose is similar to the passive bell vent or alternate key used to raise the flat lower notes and change timbre of the lower clarion notes and also to change resistance - mellow?
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-04-08 08:54
dimensional disruption
Yamaha has them too, even on the student models (YCL-250 and up).
--
Ben
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-04-08 10:25
Yamaha student clarinets are shorter than other student clarinets, presumably for smaller hands, because they continue the bore diameter - essentially extending the lower joint - into the bell but this does not serve the same purpose as the aforementioned bore modifications which serve a different purpose. In higher models - does the SEV series use them? - it also extends the length of the lower joint but allows them to use a different bore shaping algorithm but again not for the same purpose as Backun, Selmer, Forte' and others. I should have thought of a better, less vague term than dimensional disruptions - open to suggestions.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-04-08 13:10
Yamaha student clarinets are shorter than other student clarinets, presumably for smaller hands
But wouldn't that imply different tone hole placement which in turn would compromise the tuning of the whole instrument?
--
Ben
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2006-04-08 13:35
Assemble your current instrument and play a scale, top to bottom.
Take the bell off your current instrument and play a scale, top to bottom.
Hear any difference?
$700 for two notes is a pretty low return on investment.
******
In descending order, these things have made the most difference in my play;
Good reed/mouthpiece interface
Practice time on a daily basis
Lessons
Playing with other people, while we attempt to keep synchrony
A good sounding practice room (I play longer when it sounds well)
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2006-04-08 14:05
I must agree that the internal dimensions of the bell have as much to do with the results than the actual material in question. But if you search the archives for some of Alvin Swiney's stories about the legendary Hans Moennig, you'll find that Moennig observed that his customers tended to prefer the bells that weighed the least. If you get yourself a wood density chart, and compare the density of grenadilla wood with some of the other woods that Backun uses (I recall that cocobolo is denser than grenadilla, and I do know that many people like these bells, but then again, he makes them in a variety of sizes, some of the smaller ones weigh less than a standard grenadilla bell)and then refer to Moennig's observation, you might just come to the conclusion that this isn't a new concept at all. On the internal dimensions, they do have a significant effect. If the bore at the top of the bell is smaller than the bore at the end of the lower joint (as I've noticed is commonplace with Buffet R-13s in particular, I just had the opportunity to play test a good number of brand new ones that just arrived at work), you'll likely end up with some additional resistance, especially in the long notes, both in the chalumeau and lower clarion registers. So after hearing all the raving about how wonderful his products were, I acquired, secondhand, a Backun Rosewood Bell for a cost of less than 300 dollars. I liked it as it was lighter, and less resistant than my standard Buffet Bell in the long notes (which suffered from the aforementioned choke). Also I liked the subtle difference in tone quality, especially in the long notes. I still wasn't quite satisfied with it though, it didn't quite fit correctly on my instrument, and I observed that there was still a bit of a choke that I didn't want. I proceeded to take it to my friend here in Bamberg, Germany, the noteable Jochen Seggelke, and asked him if he could make it match better. In a few minutes, he adjusted it so it fit properly, and eliminated the slight choke. It played even better than before, and I've been using it regularly ever since.
Now, as far as 700 dollars for a bell goes... Well, if you have it to throw around, and want to, go for it. This is my justification for everyone that spends the amount I spent, or more or less on an accessory. I play the clarinet for a living. It's highly unlikely that anyone in the audience will really be able to tell a big difference between the slightly modified Backun bell that I use and the stock Buffet bell that I used to use. Here's why it matters: I like the way it sounds to me...and anything that I can do to enjoy playing the clarinet even more than I always have and will, I will do. Furthermore, it's my money and I'll do what I please with it.
Christopher Nichols
1st Infantry Division Band
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-04-08 20:21
The internal dimensions and polycylindrical nature - in modern instruments - and total length of the bore dictate the placement and spacing of the tone holes. Any adjustment to the bore requires moving the tone holes, which are a compromise in some instances. For example, the tone holes on the Yamaha CSG are in different places and different distances apart than the SEV series because the CSG has a modified German bore whereas the SEV does not. You can bring the finger holes and all the keywork closer together by changing the length and configuration of the bore - as Yamaha has done with the extension into the bell of the lower joint - the length of the bore. The tuning on the YCL 250 is remarkably good and the tone improved by adding an SEV style barrel as compared to other makers.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: pmgoff78
Date: 2006-04-08 20:42
Chris,
Thanks for the info, that's the kind of stuff I was looking for.
Dr. Henderson, excellent material. Thanks so much.
Hopefully this is merely the beginning of an informative posting.
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Author: Clarinetcola
Date: 2006-04-09 15:14
talking about yamaha 250s, i find that mine has a sharp curve in the interior at the beginning of the bell while my r13 doesn't have any. Is that the "dimensional disruption" that Mr Henderson was talking about? and why doesn't buffet use it?
Nathan
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-04-09 15:21
Is that the "dimensional disruption" that Mr Henderson was talking about?
At least it is the disruption I was thinking of.
--
Ben
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-04-09 15:51
I play one of Morrie Backun's cocobolo wood bells on my Opus II. When I compare it to the sound from the stock bell, there is an improvement sufficient to warrant my using the Backun bell. It smooths over the breaks and really gives my tone a boost. I spent hours going between the stock bell and the Backun before making the decision to shell out the $450.00 to Morrie. But, as GBK points out, the money spent for lessons might have produced as pleasing a result. Yet, I'm happy with my decision to go with the new bell.
The bell, even though it is "at the bottom of the clarinet" as pmgoff78 mentioned in the first part of this thread, is very important to the overall sound and intonation of the instrument. Shape and materials matter as well.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-04-09 17:12
Brenda Siewert wrote:
> Shape and materials matter as well.
Again ...
Please explain to me how you've arrived at the conclusion that the material matters in the bell. Saying that bell 'A' made of 'X' sounds different than bell 'B' made of 'Y' is not anything you or I can draw a conclusion from. Shape most certainly matters ...
You might be right, but I'd really like to know how your conclusions are reached.
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2006-04-09 17:57
Please consider the stability or lack of stability pertaining to various types of materials. Perhaps some bells resist the dimensional influences of temperature and humidity better than other materials. Both Acrylic and wood are materials that change quite a bit due to varying atmospheric conditions.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: pmgoff78
Date: 2006-04-09 18:55
I think it's a preference thing. I use a vintage mouthpiece on a vintage horn, but not on my newer horn. It's a preference thing. I don't have any scientific evidence to back that up, I just do it. I also have two vintage ligatures, one sounds softer(in tonality) than the other. So one fits the newer mouthpiece and one the vintage. Once again, no science behind it.
Brenda does the same. It works for her, so she does it. Am I correct? I don't mean to speak for you Brenda. I'm supposing this is much like playing a Rosewood instrument.....they do sound different. Not necessarily better, but different nonetheless.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-04-10 01:03
(Disclaimer- I am maker of the Forte' clarinet)
Several BB members have suggested names for the bell multi-taper adjustments (rather than dimensional disruption) in a more positive sounding term, the leader so far is "lumenal contour" - as in expanding or constricting lumenal contour or perhaps lumenal flare. The Forte' however has a chamber and I guess it would be lumenal bulbous inclusion to the expanding lumenal flare with several lumenal contour constrictions at either end. I really should get a real life sometime - so should the people that send me these names but thanks to all!
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: bufclar
Date: 2006-04-10 03:08
I've tried some Backun bells both out of cocobollo and grenadilla and I did not notice much difference between the two woods. I liked the grenadilla more than the cocbollo.....I guess because it was closer to my regular buffet bell. The only thing I did notice with these bells was that going over the break was a bit smoother but I also noticed that my tone had more dullness to it. So I really don't feel that the wood makes much difference. Maybe if the instrument is made out of cocbollo or rosewood...perhaps that would be noticeable. Backun bells are lighter so that is good to take weight away from the instrument. I suspect this might be one of the reasons Larry Combs uses one.
I am convinced that changing the bell will do very little to your sound. But they are pretty to look at, the instrument is lighter and they do help 2 pitches on the instrument so if this is worth 700 then go for it.
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