 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: moeboy
Date: 2006-04-04 01:23
I have searched through past topics, and what i found didn't quite answer what i am going to ask. In the past year i have been become very fond of the bass clarinet, and would like to possibly make it my main instrament. I currently play on an older selmer bass, just the simple resonite one. It plays well enough for the high school band, but i want one that plays like a soloist instrament. I know that i would like to get a used bass, preferably wood. I would also like a double vent register system, i played a brand new selmer with range to low c, and it was beautifully easy to play the altissimo range with the double vent. For this perticular bass i am looking for i only need it to go down to eb. Right now i don't have a couple thousand for a new bass. The pro that i talked to, and played his bass, said that he takes that particular selmer in every year since he got it (he boutght it a couple years ago) and has it re adjusted, because the wood settles. So instead of spending thousands, and then some every year to keep it in best condition, i would like a vintage already broken in. To me this would be more practical, and cheaper. My question, what is the best brand to go after that has these qualities?? Leblanc? King Mariguax? Peddler? Selmer? Any information is greatly appreciated...
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-04-04 03:07
Perhaps I should answer your brand questions directly, as best I can:
1) Leblancs are almost all single-register-vent instruments (except the very top model 430, which has range to low-C). They typically have a nice bottom register but tend to be rather resistance and 'honky' sounding in the clarion register (with occasional exceptions). Not the best bet for a 'soloist' instrument.
2) King Marigaux bass clarinets were actually made by Robert Malerne and are single-register-vent designs also -- same comment above applies -- plus, they're not as ruggedly built as Leblanc/Noblet basses.
3) Pedlers are interesting designs, and although I've never played one, neither do I know of anyone who does -- perhaps this says something?
4) Selmers, if one wishes a double-register-vent design, will all be the Paris models, which probably would exceed your price limit. Selmer USA/Bundy/Buescher bass clarinets are plastic student models, single-register-vent designs -- again not what you seem to be looking for.
Your best bets, I think, would be to find and try many older Leblancs and Selmers -- odds are you will, at some point, find one that plays well and meets your price. But it might take some time. Another option is my personal favorite brand, Kohlert (from the 1940s through 1960s, variously made in Czechoslovakia or Germany) -- rather similar in design and playing qualities to the older Selmers, but generally cheaper on the used market.
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Author: lowclarinetman
Date: 2006-04-04 13:04
I have one little point on this.
If you are interested in making the bass clarinet your main instrument and are intrested in doing solo work, you NEED the low C.
I have a very extensive collection of solo and chamber works for bass clarinet, most unpublished and given to me by henri, but 90% require the extensions.
There are a few pieces that do not require the extensions, but the majority do. So if you want an instrument to play like a solist, you need a soloists instrument.
My advice would be to hold off and wait till you can get enough money to get a low C insturment.
As far as the need for bass clarinet adjustments, they do need work done more often than your Bb/A will, mostly because the adjustments can go so out. I tweak mine before each time I play.
Just something else to think about.
bob
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Author: pmgoff78
Date: 2006-04-04 13:12
I play Leblancs and they do quite well for me. The old Buffet Radio Models are excellent as well. Even old Selmers. Trying to box the instruments into "This one is honky and this one is a good solo horn, and this one has a thin tone" is unwise. Try the horn before you buy. You'll be surprised.
Try looking at charlesfail.com
He does magnificent work! If he has nothing listed on his site, call the shop to see if he is working on something good. They wait until the horn is finished before they list it.
Also, look at Wichita Band Instrument Co., and there are many local shops in the UK that list "secondhand" instruments. Some very good selections over there!
Good Luck!
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-04-04 14:07
Also, keep in mind that the market for a "bass clarinet soloist" is pretty limited. Yeah, I know that there are a lot of "works" written for the instrument, and yeah, I know that the bass is a horn with its own unique timbre/qualities/insert your musical qualifier here.
Please don't get me wrong. I consider myself first and foremost a bass clarinet player, and have done so for many years. I'm one of the biggest fans of the bass clarinet, have been playing one for just under fifty years now, and have owned five of them at one time or another. My current stable is one that many would envy.
However, the bass will always be a color instrument, one that is as valued for its blending qualities as it is for its solo work. Eric Dolphy and avant-guarde compositions aside, it's just not a "solo" horn in the same sense that is the clarinet, flute (or, to widen the field, piano or violin).
The literature for the instrument in the solo form is of the type that will get polite applause from a limited audience, but not something that will have them eager to hear more. Other bass clarinetists will appreciate it, other clarinetists will tolerate it, but the majority of the world will stifle a yawn and look for the next virtuoso violinist to step on stage.
You can play great music on any horn, even the alto clarinet. Just don't expect the rest of the world to want to listen...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-04-04 15:16
I've also been playing bass clarinet as my #1 instrument for a number of years (35 or so, Terry's got me beat for sure!) and I think he hit the nail on the head.
The vast majority of my bass clarinet playing has been done in concert bands/wind ensembles, orchestras, clarinet choirs, and show pits. The vast majority of my playing experience has NOT required the extended range notes; and on several occasions where they were in the part (and at the time I only had a low-Eb instrument) I was able to get around the problem. It is mainly in chamber music (what little of it that includes bass clarinet), modern solo repertoire (same comment), and 20th-century and newer orchestral music that one should have a low-C instrument.
As for my comments about the four brands mentioned, these are of course generalities based on my experience playing, restoring and modifying many dozens of bass clarinets over the years --- for sure there are notable exceptions to each of my remarks. I did not mean to denigrate any of these brands -- there are fine instruments to be found amongst almost all manufacturers, but statistically you're more likely to find a good one (given a small sample size) from certain makers.
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Author: lowclarinetman
Date: 2006-04-04 18:10
Well, I certainly haven't been a pro for 35+ years. I have been making my living as a professional bass clarinetist/clarinetist for the last 5.
I did my master's degree with Henri Bok and have played numerous concerts: orchestral, chamber and solo, where I have used the extensions. Concerts that would not have sounded the same without the extensions. Imagine playing Shosty 7 without a low D and C#? Schoek Sonata(w/o the low D's and the optional low C?)
If the cost is terribly prohibitive, wait to buy an instrument. If you rush to get a Low Eb instrument odds are in a few years you will regret it.
More and more material is being written for the bass clarinet and almost all of it involves Low C.
Yes, it is a select niche. Never said it wasn't. But even if you don't make your living as a bass clarinet soloist(currently I play in an orchestra and give concerts on the side), why cut yourself off from such a large repertoire?
I can go on all day about this.. it is not my choice and not my concern.
If it were my choice, i would save my money and get a low C horn.. but it is not me and I just wanted to give my advice on the subject.
ciao
bob
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-04-04 20:17
Bob,
Please don't take what I say as dismissive of your (or of anyone else's) musical accomplishments. I've known any number of orchestral bass players over the years, and the instrument is capable of a lot more than what is commonly assumed by those used to shared horns from a school instrument pool. There's a place for this level of performance. Not a very expansive place, but there are a few jobs out there.
And, in the hands of a professional or accomplished amateur, the bass clarinet can be virtually as flexible of a tool as the finest of the soprano horns, or a Strad, or any other instrument. I personally enjoy playing quality accompaniment for vocalists on the horn more than any "solo" work, but that's just me. It's a big, non-Republican tent out there for the bass, and any are welcomed.
However, it's all a matter of degree in this particular case. Our original poster is someone feeling their way through life at the high school level, and voicing his/her thoughts about thinking about making the bass their main instrument (small alarm bell goes off).
At that level, there are several things wrong with making a "decision" that's as final as investing in a professional level bass clarinet.
The first is the matter of future intent. Right now, our young poster is keen on the idea. Tomorrow, next week, when football season rolls around, or when interest in a particular girl or guy picks up, that may no longer be the case. At that point, a former passion may become nothing more than an expensive distraction.
I've bought and sold more than a few "magic model" saxophones over the years that were originally picked up by the parents of young people in just this same frame of mind. Their mistake, and due to my ready offer of cash now, my gain.
This year, a good horn may look pretty important to a youngster. Next year, it might be that a car will exceed that level by a comfortable margin.
The second issue is the matter of degree. You can buy a first class, brand new clarinet for under $5,000 even at retail. Most will get by for under $2,500. Cheap compared to saxophones, bassoons and strings, but still "doable" under most budgets without breaking the bank.
Bump that up to a pro level bass clarinet, particularly a new extended range horn, and you're suddenly in the price range of a _very_ good used car. You also are in limited selection land, unlike a world where numerous clarinets/flutes/whatever are all there for the testing. It's worse when you buy a baritone, but bass clarinets are still pretty thin on the ground.
Committing to such an expensive and restricted selection item at a point in a person's life where the entire world may turn on a dime into a new direction of interest is just not prudent. The limiting literature available for the extended range, or the regular horn is just one more factor in the decision.
In a perfect world, I'd argue for the best possible tool for each and every job. (I'd also argue for keeping those tools protected from those who didn't care about them, another pet peeve of mine.) In the developing world of a young person interested in music and faced with other, real world concerns (school costs, a car, that boy/girlfriend, and a very limited employment market for the target skill), it makes better sense for them to get by for a few years until they're sure they are heading in the direction of professional music.
By the way, the almost fifty year bass clarinet playing stint was not all at the pro level. I've been playing for those big buxs under the union scale since about 1968 or thereabouts, and I'd estimate that about a third of the notes fingered were on the "funny, skinny saxophone" during that time span. Far more on the real saxes these days, though...
I bought my Model 33 in 1972 or thereabouts, paying for it cash from money I made from playing gigs during the time between the placing of the order and the actual delivery of the test horns. Had a credit union loan all lined up and everything, but didn't need to use it. More importantly, I had a day job lined up that made me independent enough to be able to afford to play music professionally. (This is an oft-overlooked aspect of the life musical...work for the money, play the music for the enjoyment (and the extra money).)
Since that time, I've tried any number of other horns, but have yet to find an adequate replacement. (This April 8, I get to try a few more, if what is advertised for Rice University actually comes off.)
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: pmgoff78
Date: 2006-04-04 21:21
Bass Clarinetists are not the only people working in a limited arena. I have a good friend who holds a degree in Baritone Saxophone performance and he's working just as hard as me to make room for solo performance of low woodwinds. It'll take time, but it's doable.
Simply poo-pooing solo Bass Clarinet pursuits seems a little short-sighted. I can hardly imagine that 100 years ago the Tubists of the era would have thought that there would be so many professional solo Tubists (who all have big University gigs too). I'm willing to wait.
In the meantime, the Bass Clarinet is an excellent color instrument and I wholeheartedly believe that one of the biggest reasons my community band sounds so good is the fact that my friend (Bari Sax) and I (Bass Clarinet) contribute so mightily.
The only problem I see with an argument that "It's a color instrument, get over it, it isn't going to change" is that when students hear that, they don't strive for anything. The mark of the FINEST teachers and the FINEST programs is allowing students to strive....even if it seems a little foolish. Why? Because we don't know what these students may turn out to be unless we allow them to STRIVE for something greater. No?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-04-04 21:53
To clarify my own little posting, I'm not a full-time professional player at all, never have been. I've been a part-time, semi-amateur/semi-pro my whole 35 years on the bass clarinet, so I see things more from Terry's side than from Bob's (lowclarinetman's) side. Unless one were firmly committed to going whole-hog, single-mindedly, firmly committed to being a professional full-time bass clarinetist, I would not steer a young person in the direction of a low-C instrument, for the very thoughtfully spelled-out reasons in Terry's post. And if the student buys a low-Eb horn now and needs to move up later, no big deal! Sell the low-Eb horn, buy a low-C horn --- I don't see what the problem is.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-04-04 21:54
Well said re: lower ww's in comm band, pmg78, I have been our [usually] only B C for 20 some years, and when our bari sax player "gets with it", we make up for the volume-balance the bassoons cannot, and help create fully melodic band music which our conductors love. I have found quite a few "semi-solos" in both old and new music. I now find myself also lugging along my good alto cl, to further fill in the cl choir character, when our asst. cond. picks up his bass cl. Try it, its rewarding even at rehearsal. Re: vintage?? bass cl, I've not found better than my Selmer 33 Eb, but did have a BIG [un-ergonomic] Pedler [D R K!!] bass, Dave S, gave it to NMM, Vermillion. Gave its comparable alto and a Conn bass [like yours] to our Tulsa Band, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: moeboy
Date: 2006-04-05 02:20
I don't quite know if i want to change completely over to bass, that i will admit. I will say that i know i want to atleast try to get somewhere in the music industry when i get out of school, and just by common sense i know that i should be able to play different kinds of clarinets to be versitile. I don't want, nor can afford to buy a pro model bass clarinet. That would take years of saving, and until then i would have to use a undersufficient bass. I was just wondering out of the cheaper vintage models, such as leblanc, noblet, kohlert, and the others which is the most popular and most liked. I can't afford a pro model anything right now, much less the upkeep on such an instrument. I just would like to invest on a horn that would get me through high school, and possibly college, just to see if it is better than the normal clarinet. Thanks for your replies!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-04-05 02:42
moeboy,
I think now we understand better your goals --- I stick to my contention that a good used low-Eb instrument should serve you very well through high school and college. Check around for the brands mentioned -- by the way, Noblet is a Leblanc model, acoustically and mechanically nearly identical to the more expensive Leblanc-branded instruments -- definitely try some of those, as well as Kohlerts, Selmer-Paris, Yamaha, also Amati, maybe Ridenour, maybe Allora, maybe Jupiter (those last three I mention second-hand, not having had personal experience with them).
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Author: clari-hack
Date: 2006-04-05 13:32
HI!
Fascinating post.
Nobody mentions the Buffet as an option for Bass Clarinet.
I am currently considering the purchase of a 1950 ish buffet low e flat horn that is need of a complete overhaul.
Anybody have any advice here or recommendations concerning the buffets from this era?
Thanks, Steve
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-04-05 14:04
While the field of available horns is pretty wide, in the "affordable" second hand market you are going to see mostly Bundy/Selmer USA (serviceable but not what you would want in the way of a permanent horn), Vito (ditto, only less so in my opinion) plus a scattering of other stuff like Kohlert. Those are the classic "school horns" that get bought, used, abused, discarded and then auctioned off by the districts all of the time.
With the exception of some old (circa 1950 or so) Kohlerts, virtually all of these are going to have the dreaded "register keys on the body" system. It works (and it works well enough for the "casual player" of any stripe), but it is limiting when you start placing heavy demands on the horn for tonality, octave jumps and the other sort of things that are part and parcel of "modern" bass clarinet playing.
"Used school horns" will also almost always be in horrid condition. Not having ownership over something means that some of the thoughtless little buggers who use them don't really worry too much about knocks and dings. Ten or twelve years of this, and you have a mess, one that will end up on the auction pile at the district warehouse if the band director and/or the program has the money to replace it.
One level up are the horns that I would aim at. These are the low Eb range Selmer and (very occasionally) Buffet horns that some districts will buy for their "top" organizations. While they too may suffer from the "Not my horn, man!" type of abuse so common in schools, they are usually repairable and are quality instruments. They have the "good register key" system, and they have been around long enough to have been "through" the school systems and then placed out to pasture when something new (think extended range) has been bought by the district.
You might find the occasional upper end Yamaha horn, and you certainly will find Leblanc horns. However, the Yamahas haven't been in the purchasing pool for all that long (in used clarinet terms), so there will be fewer of them, and the Leblancs will almost always have the dreaded "register keys on the body".
The rest will show up now and then as well now that they have been around for a while, but they still don't compare to a Selmer or Buffet horn.
As for the Ridenour, you can read my comments elsewhere on this service on same. I'd not spend $200 on one, personally, and this is based solely on the physical condition of the one new specimen that I've been able to examine. Get a thirty year old Bundy instead...
A good source for pro-quality harmony instruments like the bass clarinet can be the districts themselves. All school districts (at least here in Texas and up in the Saint Louis area) periodically auction off excess and old equipment, and that's where the old band instruments end up at the end of their day in the sun.
There they will be, piled up like cordwood. At the last Pasadena ISD (second largest district in Texas) auction that I attended, there was a mountain of low brass, three bassoons, and about a dozen alto, bass and contra-bass clarinets in the pile. Assembled in a stack in the middle of the district's maintenance yard, all had been left outside in the sun (but no rain, thankfully) overnight between the viewing day and the auction day.
You can get pro quality horns at these events for pennies on the dollar, and then spend the purchase price of a Selmer USA bass clarinet getting them fixed up like new. Watch the paper, visit the "preview" session, and you just might score the big time.
Saxophone players take note: there are a lot of former school Mark VI horns that show up at these as well. They will look like crap warmed over, but they are still of the prized vintage.
During the viewing, you will find tears coming to your eyes as you see what damage the youth of America is capable of inflicting on these artist quality instruments. I've seen low C tone holes on baritones that look like they've been run over by a tank, missing keys, smashed necks...it's enough to make you weep.
However, I also know of one player who got a Mark VI vintage (but not Mark VI, of course) low A baritone for under a C note. Seven hundred odd dollars later, he had a first class baritone, one that he still plays. The case is still in tatters, though...
One other thing. It appears that you are currently playing a "school horn". If so, there are two steps that you can take to move a lot further with that instrument alone.
The first is to get it assigned to you and you alone. This is not always possible, of course, since harmony instruments are often community property in school systems. However, if you can pull it off, you will have control over the instrument, and will be able to keep it in good condition.
The second is to get it overhauled by a competent repairperson. Bass clarinet players that I have taught have improved a 1000% once their leaking and misaligned instruments have been properly set up. Those big saucer keys on the lower joint are particularly susceptible to dings and knocks that may not seem significant at the time, but are more than enough to send you on a one way trip to Squeeksville every time you try to cross the break.
A possible third item to add here is to ensure that the case in which the horn is kept is not causing damage to the instrument while it is being carried. This is a problem with older, school abused cases, but it can exist with new horns as well.
When I bought my Selmer "main horn", top of the then-current line, I had it serviced post-delivery, tested it at the repairman and found that it played like my sopranos, took it home, and found that it would not speak freely over the entire compass. Did it all again, with identical results.
It turns out that the factory-supplied Selmer case had a poorly cut Plywood "template", and that one of the convolutions in the case cutout was bearing against one of the lower joint keys. The slightest bump to the case in a longitudinal direction while it was being carried was enough to bend the key (if it had not been depressed as the horn was being placed in the case), and cause a nasty leak. We had to disassemble the case, modify the cutout with a jig saw, and put it all together again, but the problem immediately went away.
Finally, if I was buying a used horn on ebay or from any other source, I would look for intact wood throughout, a solid and relatively undamaged neck (one of the hardest parts to get replaced), and generally decent condition elsewhere. In particular, look at the "long rods" and their supports for the double register key; these are very exposed to damage and can cause cracks in the body of the instrument. Also a problem are "after market" installed peg brackets, which are often only poorly attached to the body of the horn and which take a lot of physical abuse as a result.
Dings in the bell are cosmetic but not critical to the overall performance, and virtually everything else can be fixed by the mythical good repairman.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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