 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-04-02 09:58
It struck me this morning that the phrase, "just my two cents", often applied here to an isolated opinion -- that is, one unaccompanied by any explanation or argument -- implies an inaccurate view of how musical appreciation works.
If lots of isolated opinions were to 'add up' in the way that cents do, then simply seeing that there was consensus of opinion about the value of something would be useful in coming to appreciate it yourself.
Yet this is not the case. And, notoriously, popularity doesn't correlate with quality.
Whereas even one argument may 'add up' for someone reading it, and lead to deeper acquaintance, understanding and appreciation.
Tony
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Author: larryb
Date: 2006-04-02 11:22
That's an interesting point.
I did a search of "two cents" here and found that the phrase seems to appear a little less than 400 times, and I'd say about half of those usages are related to posts about intonation (in other words, "two cents" in the context of pitch, as opposed to personal opinion).
On the other hand, the insidious "imho" appears almost two thousand times.
In the end, I agree that it should be the quality of any argument or opinion, rather than its frequency, that matters most. Unfortunately, if that were the case generally in the world, then classical music and jazz would not be dying arts.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-02 16:08
At the end of the day, in my opinion, for what it's worth...
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-04-02 16:22
Chris P wrote:
>> At the end of the day, in my opinion, for what it's worth...>>
Not in my book.
Tony
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Author: hans
Date: 2006-04-02 16:27
Tony Pay,
Re: "popularity doesn't correlate with quality". This statement may have high face validity, but there is some evidence to the contrary.
You may want to read "The Wisdom of Crowds" by James Surowiecki, wherein he demonstrates that "large groups of people are smarter than an elite few, no matter how brilliant...".
Hans
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-04-02 17:08
You may want to read "The Wisdom of Crowds" by James Surowiecki, wherein he demonstrates that "large groups of people are smarter than an elite few, no matter how brilliant...".
Alternatively, Despair,inc has demotivation posters of which one reads "never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups". ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
Post Edited (2006-04-02 17:08)
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-04-02 18:52
Here's the thing: some of us may use the disclaimers "just my $.02" or "IMO" (imho) defensively, to forestall attacks from those who think otherwise, or know otherwise. It's a way of saying, "I don't mean to be argumentative."
And some of us may use those phrases so as not to come across as know-it-alls, or to signify a posture of open-mindedness and humility.
There is something in the process of committing one's transitory thoughts to print that can create an impression that the Oracle has spoken. The ".02" and "IMO" modifiers seek to minimize that effect.
Susan
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Author: bufclar
Date: 2006-04-02 19:32
Susan,
Well said!
I use the IMO and my 2 cents for exactally what you said. I've noticed that Tony and others love to point out that when we argue or give advice to someone, we sound like we are making factual statements or sound like an authority. Now we can't say IMO or 2 cents because we are not providing any kind of solid argument or facts with our statements. I guess you have to be an international soloist or member of a top orchestra or teach at a top university to be credible enough to say anything on here. If not then we will be put in check.
All I know is that I'm 60,000 thousand dollars in debt after finishing a masters degree and have done nothing but study and play and perform for the last 11 years of my life......I wish that would at least give me the opportunity to say something on this board regardless of the fact that I don't have an orchestra contract or recording contract.
I am very happy that someone like Mr. Pay gives his time on this board but this post seemed a little ridiculous to me.......IN MY OPINION:)
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-04-02 20:14
hmmm
i've always interpreted "just my 2c" as an expression of Humility (and, as has been noted, a way to avoid confrontation from those who strongly disagree). But i note your comments Mr Pay.
donald
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2006-04-02 20:29
-- "often applied here to an isolated opinion -- that is, one unaccompanied by any explanation or argument " --
Yes, I think you hit the nail on its proverbial head!
Steve
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Author: hans
Date: 2006-04-02 20:54
Re: "What hope have we?" .... let's not get plural, IMO :-)
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Author: Jay Webler
Date: 2006-04-03 12:37
This is Jay Webler. I am once again returning to the list since I see that it is in BB style and I won't have to wade to hundres of emails daily.
It is nice to know, however, that ther price of free advice has not gone up like everything else. "Just my 2 cents" is still just 2 cents. Perhaps if it were subject to the same inflationary rules as everything else, the perceived value would be greater.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-04-03 12:44
Jay Webler wrote:
> This is Jay Webler. I am once again returning to the list
> since I see that it is in BB style and I won't have to wade to
> hundres of emails daily.
Jay,
You aren't returning to "the list" that you think you are ... The Clarinet Bulletin Board and the Klarinet email list are two distint entities.
BTW - after running the Klarinet list for some years now I've yet to see the "hundreds of emails" in one day. The traffic here is significantly greater than the Klarinet email list. The advantage (if any) is that you don't have to read all the posts.
Post Edited (2006-04-03 12:53)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-04-03 12:52
Jay Webler wrote:
> My mistake. I apologize for my overstatement.
Of course no apology needed ...
Some days it sure seems there are hundreds of emails ...
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Author: corks&pads
Date: 2006-04-03 17:18
Here's the thing: some of us may use the disclaimers "just my $.02" or "IMO" (imho) defensively, to forestall attacks from those who think otherwise, or know otherwise. It's a way of saying, "I don't mean to be argumentative."
Not to be argumentative, but most of those who use "IMHO" don't seem to be stating their opinions humbly at all. I'll save everyone trouble and say right now that my own opinions may be wrong, ignorant, misleading, and/or tactless. . .but never humble!
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2006-04-03 17:37
From Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary(OALD) :
(both BrE) (NAmE put in your two 'cents' worth) to give your opinion about sth, even if other people do not want to hear it
Nothing adds up to nothing.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2006-04-03 17:41
put in your two 'pennyworth (also put in your two 'penn’orth)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-04-03 18:09
Another meaning of IMO or IMHO from a scientist's point of view is a statement, certain facts, or an educated guess (to what degree educated brings any further credibility is subjective) that can not be proven by direct observation or experimental evidence which will stand up to peer review. Knowing what this burden of proof should be prompts me to use IMO when I cannot prove it, but the statement may be more than a wild guess or speculation. I suppose that I would take an IMO more seriously from a recognized expert, or talented professional. As with any statement not accompanied by factual proof it should be filtered and weighed against what you know to be true, can reasonably research to validate, or weight against other respected opinions to make your own decision.
L. Omar Henderson
Post Edited (2006-04-03 20:42)
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Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2006-04-03 18:32
I'm annoyed when someone says "May I ask you a question?"
My response is always "You just did."
Or how about when people say "literally" when they mean "figuratively"?
And why must people announce their opinions with "I want to make a statement"? Just state it!
Post Edited (2006-04-03 18:34)
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Author: larryb
Date: 2006-04-03 19:26
I'm annoyed when someone says "May I ask you a question?"
My response is always "You just did."
Are you annoyed because you always respond the same way? Maybe you should try a different response.
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Author: ned
Date: 2006-04-03 22:17
''If lots of isolated opinions were to 'add up' in the way that cents do, then simply seeing that there was consensus of opinion about the value of something would be useful in coming to appreciate it yourself.''
We elect governments on the basis of ''lots of isolated opinions'', and it would be useful to have a degree in law or commerce or political science in order to make an informed vote, but of course, the majority of the electorate does not.
It appears that this BB operates in a similar fashion. How dry and boring would it all be if one were compelled to substiantiate, to the letter, every utterance or opinion offered, as Tony Pay seems to be suggesting.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-04-04 13:05
ned wrote:
>> How dry and boring would it all be if one were compelled to substiantiate, to the letter, every utterance or opinion offered, as Tony Pay seems to be suggesting.>>
This is a 'straw man' argument, as I'm sure most people can see.
Let me put it slightly differently. Here are two possible posts:
(1) "I think that recording by player X of piece Y is the best and most musical available. (Just my two cents.)"
(2) "I think that recording by player X of piece Y is the best and most musical available.
"The balance of the soloist to the orchestra is very well judged -- you hear the important woodwind solos because X intelligently defers to them.
"The first movement is taken at a moderate tempo, which enables it to be slightly faster and more exciting at some points and slightly slower and more reflective at others, without damaging the overall sense of unity. The simple slow movement is simply presented, apart from a little flight of fancy in the cadenza, and the last movement, taken faster than X's competitors, nevertheless has startlingly clean passagework, thanks to X's tonal modulation of an excellent basic clarinet sound. The orchestral accompaniment is likewise excellent.
"The overall impression is spontaneous, unlike many recordings; we hear that Y is a better piece than it has often seemed; and it only costs $15 on the internet."
So, which post 'adds up'?
Which post do you learn more from?
Which poster has taken the trouble to think of something worth saying about their liking of X's performance of Y?
Tony
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Author: graham
Date: 2006-04-04 17:01
The problem with post number (2) is that the poster has not certified that he has heard and assessed all available recordings of the work and therefore can reasonably say (even only in his opinion) that it is the best. But I can see that unexplained opinions do not tell the reader very much. It sometimes arises that people explain themselves at considerable length and still add the 2 cents rider. It is merely intended to denote a person's subjective view which may not be worth much to another person if that person wanted to go as far as to rely upon it.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-04-05 10:58
Thanks graham, I think I get it now. I still think Tony's a great clarinetist ....and raconteur too. The fact that I don't always grasp his logic is my loss.
Bob Draznik
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Author: ned
Date: 2006-04-05 22:46
''The fact that I don't always grasp his logic is my loss.''
Not necessarily.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2006-04-06 15:24
I think often "my two cents" just means, "I'm not pretending to be an expert on this subject and I don't want to sound arrogant, but I do know enough to have an opinion." Tony, I agree with your point that it's better to explain, specifically, what we mean and why we mean it. "Just my two cents" or "IMHO" or other phrases of that type often strike me as attempts at the online equivalent of facial expressions and body language we use to make our meaning clearer in everyday, face-to-face conversations. Take this sentence, for instance:
>Herbert Tosspot's performance of the Weber was not the worst I'd ever heard.>
As music criticism, that's a particularly poor sentence, because it's not even clear what the writer would mean by it. Is it damnation with faint praise? Or does it mean that Tosspot performed better than the writer (whose expectations were very low) expected? It might even be a flippant sentence that really means, "Herbert Tosspot gave a such a brilliant performance that I'm too awestruck to say much about it." Without seeing the writer, we just can't tell.
Add some figurative body language and the sentence makes a little more sense:
>Herbert Tosspot's performance of the Weber was not the worst I'd ever heard.> [evil grin!]
Now I'm inclined to think it's a flippant sentence, particularly if Herbert Tosspot is well-known as a brilliant clarinet player.
>Herbert Tosspot's performance of the Weber was not the worst I'd ever heard.> [groan!]
Now at least I know that the writer didn't like the performance.
>Herbert Tosspot's performance of the Weber was not the worst I'd ever heard. Just my 2 cents.>
Now I think the writer means the sentence literally, and I think it's an earnest (if failed) attempt to criticize the performance: not the worst -playing, but not very good.
The problem with this type of shorthand is that it works a little bit, but usually not well enough to compensate for the lack of face-to-face communication. The sentence still isn't nearly as useful as a detailed explanation would be. That same, lame sentence takes on a whole new meaning if we happen to know, for instance, that Mr. Tosspot showed up paralytic drunk and passed out on stage, five minutes into the performance.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2006-04-06 15:26)
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-04-06 16:10
Hey, I think I used this Tosspot guy as a sub one night a few years back. He plays alto as well, right?
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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