 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: rgames
Date: 2006-03-30 17:01
From the world of music technology: the Vienna Symphonic Library have recently released their latest "virtual" orchestral instruments. Check out the Schumann Fantasiestucke Clarinet/Piano demo here:
http://www.vsl.co.at/Player.aspx?DemoId=4669&Lang=2
Bear in mind that this is completely computer generated (using a software sampler).
Pretty amazing...
rgames
____________________________
Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2006-03-30 17:21
If I had heard this without knowing beforehand that it was computer generated, I would have thought it was a student with a good tone but not a lot of musicality?
But maybe I fool myself.
A blind test with a couple of top clarinetists would be interesting though.
Clarinet Redux
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2006-03-30 17:31
Wow, I've never heard the Fantasy Pieces swung.
The flat, botched note at 1:16 is an especially nice touch, as is the fact they used samples from a Bb clarinet on a piece for A. Of all pieces, they had to pick Schumann Fantasy Piece #1, with that telltale concert Ab in the first phrase.
The legato is nicer than most sampled clarinet patches I've heard, but I imagine it took a LOT of work on the sequencer's part.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-03-30 17:55
And, to add insult to injury to our simulated clarinet player's lot, the whole thing is still a "prepared" performance. One wonders just how well it came out the "first time through", before it was all edited together...
I'm not worried about what I do, but I can see that, over time, this will be accepted by many as "good enough". Face it, we've been suffering with this same problem over many years. Recordings were better than nothing (and good enough for most), but they still don't have live performance presence. Some will settle, but even the casual listener will notice the difference in most cases.
The real problem will come when (as I like to say) "margarine becomes butter". After many years of constant exposure to "fake", it takes on a life of its own and it in turn becomes "real". I've seen this with butter and margarine in my lifetime, and with much of pop music it is an accomplished fact as well.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-03-30 19:05
Brenda Siewert wrote:
> Nice, but no cigar. I'd still rather hear a real human being.
I would think that all clarinetists should/would feel the same way.
However, the rest of the general listening public (including musicians who do not play the clarinet) probably can't hear any difference between live and sampled.
I would really like to have some world class conductors, who allege to have acute listening skills, try and tell the live clarinet player from the pre-recorded one...GBK
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-03-30 19:13
Classical musicians are hosed. Fortunately jazz still requires improvisation, plus a wide variety of tone colors and 'styles', so we're safe in that genre for a while. Clarinetists, you should consider hanging up your classical clarinets and taking up jazz, preferably on saxophone.
![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-03-30 21:27
When I told my wife that the master's class teacher at Bassoonarama last month was a member of the Endangered Instrument Society, she responded, "What are those? Everything except guitar?"
Bob Phillips
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2006-03-30 22:03
David,
Classical music does not require style and various colors? Would you play the Debussy Rhapsodie for the clarinet the same as you would play the Brahms f minor? Style wise? Tone color? Articulation?
What about the Mozart concerto and the Nielsen? Same?
I hope not!
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-03-30 22:25
Classical music does not require style and various colors?
As in mauve tuxedo? ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2006-03-30 23:35
"Classical music does not require style and various colors?"
My hot pink clarinet begs to differ.
Heck, I get upset with recordings in general because they're usually spliced together. I don't want to hear a patched-together rendition of how the orchestra played thirty different pieces of a symphony, I want to hear how that orchestra sounds when they play it start to finish.
Yeah, it'll sound better, accuracy-wise, if the best of each tiny bit is kept, but there's something subtle that is lost when the performance isn't an intact run.
But then, people don't buy the L.A. Phil's rendition of The Planets (which is a great recording) because it's the L.A. Phil. They buy it because it's The Planets, and all the notes are where they should be.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: StephanieG
Date: 2006-03-30 23:44
"Hang up your classical clarinets" what ?!?!?!? i love my classical clarinet thank you
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2006-03-31 00:01
Of course, the programmer started having nightmares about
reeds, which no one could explain....
And also, by the way, the "Fantasy" stucke is a perfect choice for a phantasy clarinet!
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-03-31 00:31
I listened.
I snored.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: thechosenone
Date: 2006-03-31 00:37
This definitely doesn't sound like a real clarinet. There is no evidence of playing through the intervals, and the sounds lacks depth, particularly where additional air pressure is needed to press down/release keys/holes.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-03-31 00:42
Personally ...
If I didn't know better and this was on the car radio while I was driving and not paying attention ... I probably wouldn't have given it much thought. It would have blended in the background.
Which means I honestly wouldn't have noticed it was synthetic. Just that it wasn't especially good ... and there's a lot of "not especially good" recordings available, now that recording's become very inexpensive.
No contest winner, but not really all that bad.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-03-31 01:00
Regarding recordings of symphonic work, I would imagine that there is far more of that "fixing" going on than we know. Minor cleanup work is done routinely on such recordings over the industry as a whole, and there's no reason to suspect that classical recordings are any different.
However, the "splicing" together of several dozen segments to make a whole is probably still the province of our pop and rock friends.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2006-03-31 01:31
With the sound coming through my poor quality lap top speakers I was unable to notice any difference. The interpretation was a bit pedestrian though.
A friend of mine has a recording studio. With the technology available now their seems to be less reason to work on technique. Simply play things at a quarter of the speed and let the technician speed it up (this can now be done without changing the pitch). Dodgy tone and intonation can be changed as well.
We are in a society that dulls our sensitivity to sound with the constant thumping of drums and electric guitars. I fear we are a bit of an anachronism.
The general population seem to view us in the same league as "Trekies".
Go to a bar and try to score with the with the words;
"I play the basset horn"
try again with the words Saxophone or Guitar and the results may be different.
Somhow the general public has to be educated to apprieciate live music and to see the true beauty and glamour of the Clarinet.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2006-03-31 01:45
"However, the "splicing" together of several dozen segments to make a whole is probably still the province of our pop and rock friends."
It happens pretty regularly in the classical world as well, according to just about everything I've heard. Perhaps not several dozen, but a handful nonetheless. Overdubbing is also quite popular, but seemingly more in the film world than straight-up classical rep.
Unless the album is legitimately billed as "live," you're probably getting some cut & paste.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: ned
Date: 2006-03-31 02:39
''However, the rest of the general listening public (including musicians who do not play the clarinet) probably can't hear any difference between live and sampled.''
I have to say that I can't hear any difference and I play the clarinet.......of the jazz variety........I suppose I'd be able to pick the difference if it were a jazz sample though.
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Author: steve s
Date: 2006-03-31 03:22
This Is very interesting, but you have to realize that these are some of the best sample libraries out there, and these performances are not completely computer-generated. Most likely a skilled keyboard player was playing the clarinet part and using a modulation wheel to obtain some semblance of expression. This is obvious to anybody who is familiar with classical music, though not so obvious to an unschooled individual listening to this as a background. Nevertheless the sampling and synthesis has come a very long way.
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Author: GMac
Date: 2006-03-31 04:17
The clarinet outshines the other intsruments by far...the rest of them (particularly the oboe) sound terrible! One is reminded of an accordian...
But I really am stunned at the clarinet recording...that's pretty phenomenal.
Graham
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-03-31 05:05
In the film world, overdubbing is an essential, since there's no way you can synchronize the music with the shots. This has been the case since the very first days of sound film production.
On our recordings, we do the musicians first, usually in one take, and then "punch in" the vocalists. Occasionally, we will replace a portion of a tune when the vocalist feels that they are a bit on the weak side, but the music always goes down as one continuous take.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2006-03-31 12:23
My husband, an amateur violinist, helped out a friend with a home recording studio by playing the violin section for a vocalist's backup orchestra. He sat there and played the same thing on eight tracks for the first fiddles and eight for the second fiddles, so that each track would sound just slightly different and the result would sound like a violin section. The guy did the same with a cellist, a violist and a string bass player, one at a time. The music was woozy "new-agey" stuff and my husband said it was the most boring gig he ever played....
The virtual clarinet and the other virtual instruments come in very handy for composers who want musicians to be able to hear, generally, what a new piece will sound like. A lot of people today won't buy sheet music unless they've heard it. I've disappeared completely as a composer since I shut down my Sibelius web site, where customers could hear their computers play my scores. Unfortunately, the site now requires an agreement so onerous that I absolutely refuse to sign it, because it makes the composers legally liable for way too much stuff we can't control.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: rgames
Date: 2006-04-01 10:14
I agree with most of the sentiments presented here - I've heard better performances. But really, you've got to admit that it at least deserves an "OK" rating - I've also heard worse performances...
For those interested, here's the flute (Debussy Syrinx):
http://www.vsl.co.at/Player.aspx?DemoId=4668&Lang=2
and the Bassoon (Saint-Saens Sonata):
http://www.vsl.co.at/Player.aspx?DemoId=4670&Lang=2
rgames
____________________________
Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-04-06 00:17
Contra almost everyone in this thread, I think that this is a wonderful version of the Schumann.
That isn't because I think that the representation of the CLARINET is wonderful.
It's because I think that the programmer has a deep understanding of what he's (or she's) trying to do with the piece.
But to see that, you need (for example) to listen to how he (or she) represents the piano triplets, as they change character throughout the piece. You need to understand that those triplets show that parts of the piece are 'resigned', and parts of the piece 'hopeful'. And you need to appreciate that the overall shape passes beyond resignation and hopefulness to a final acceptance.
The truth is that a good, well-practiced musician is able to show these higher level structures -- even in something like a cowbell solo, as I was once astounded to discover.
What makes this remarkable is nothing to do with clarinet sampling. It's to do with the musicianship of the programmer. That's what's rare.
I salute him/her.
And, I'd play it to my students.
Tony
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