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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2006-02-23 14:08
When I am given a bass sax part to play on a (b-flat) contrabass clarinet, should I transpose down an octave? Or, to ask in another way, if a bass sax player and a contrabass clarinetist were reading off the same piece of music, would they be playing the same note or would they be an octave apart?
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-02-23 14:53
A contra is in "BBb," an octave below the bass sax.
A bass sax really honks, and people expect that. Like a contrabassoon, the instrument is designed to "blat." You can play a contrabass clarinet pretty loud, but I'm not sure it's the right sound.
A real GAS guy would own a bass sax, or maybe two. ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-23 15:12
Bass sax and BBb contrabass clarinet are both in the same pitch, so play the bass sax part on contra exactly as it's written.
But a contrabass clarinet will DESCEND nearly an octave below a bass sax's low Bb (one ledger line below the treble clef stave), assuming the contrabass goes to low C - even a contrabass to low Eb will have spare notes below that of a bass sax.
If you're playing bass sax parts on bass clarinet, you will need to play everything an octave lower than written, if playing a low C bass clarinet you will only be short of the bass saxes lowest note by a whole tone - modern bass saxes only descend to low Bb - and that's a whole tone lower than the bass clarinet's low C.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2006-02-23 19:17
Thanks. I was confused about this because when I received some bass sax parts to play last night I noticed that a lot of what was written corresponded to the upper register on the contra, so the thought went through my head about the possibility that the bass sax and contra "read" the parts differently. I then commented to the conductor that the bass sax parts seemed pretty high, to which he told me to play them down an octave. I'm guessing that he thought that I was saying they were too high for me to play, which they weren't. I took his comment as verification of my initial suspicion.
I do think, however, that if the same parts had been written or transcribed for contrabass some of the notes would have been dropped to take advantage of the contra's greater low range, as I noticed the tubas playing some notes and passages that were identical but an octave lower.
By the way, last night I didn't have the contra with me, as it is in the shop for adjustment, so I did try to transpose as much as possible of the parts down an octave on my bass. (I wasn't always successful.)
Regarding Ken's suggestion that bass sax parts are better played on a bass sax, that may be the case, but (a) I don't play bass sax, (b) I don't have a bass sax, (c) if the bass sax timbre and honkability were important, I think the conductor would have brought in a bass sax player (most likely the guy who is tweaking the contra), and (d) the parts seemed to duplicate the bass clarinet line and/or the tuba line in many places. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Maybe Ken can loan me one of his bass saxes, since he obviously, as a real GAS guy, has a spare. Could you also loan me something to haul it around in, since I am lucky I can even get the contra in my car. (It rides shotgun.)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-23 20:11
The upper register on bass sax and contrabass clarinet are exactly at the same pitch, and the fingerings are almost identical in the upper register (so both sound the same D5 with xxx|xxx and G5 is xxx|ooo - with the speaker or octave key pressed depending which one you're playing) - one thing is bass saxes usually go up to high Eb (and some are built up to high F# as well - Selmers now go up to F# since the SA80 bass replaced the MKVI bass which was still being built up until fairly recently, and I think the more expensive of the two Orsi basses goes up to F# as well) but I don't know how easy or stable the lower altissimo fingerings on contrabass clarinet are as they don't have the perforated fingerplate (LH 1) as bass clarinets have (or a special mechanism to vent this, like a cor anglais/bass oboe split fingerplate for LH 1) for the lower part of the altissimo register.
In tutti passages there's no reason why you shouldn't drop everything an octave lower than written just to add more weight (obviously with exception of the bass sax's low B or Bb that might crop up), and to do what a contrabass is aptly named for - for 'doubling the bass' as it were.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-02-23 21:34
Don -
I don't own a bass sax (or any saxes at all). But I do have two contras, in Eb and BBb. Care to buy one, to bring down my GAS score?
I'm probably not a true GASser, since I own only an alto clarinet mouthpiece, and not the instrument itself.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-02-24 15:22
Whenever I've seen a bass sax part (which is almost exclusively in Broadway shows these days), the part was written with the slapstick character of the bass sax tone and articulation in mind. Playing one on a contrabass clarinet would give the equivalent pitch, but little else of what the composer or arranger had in mind.
My classic bass sax story has to do with a university production of West Side Story played in a peculiar split orchestra pit (with a massive thrust running up the middle, the better for some stage business. I was on the clarinet/bass clarinet/tenor/baritone book (the show has at least three books with bass clarinet, by the way), and was buried in one of the two pit segments. Other players (including the flutes) were in the other section, making for a very unusual tonal picture presented to the performers, to say the least.
One thing that I noticed early on was that the opening rumble sequence was "lacking" in presence, for whatever reason. Most of the time I was on tenor/clarinet, and the lack of the baritone was made up by the bass sax part providing much of the underpinning of the number. But, in this production the bottom just wasn't there. I attributed it to some flaw in the acoustics of the unusual split orchestra pit.
One rehearsal, I had extracted myself from my subterranean lair to put the tenor away (not needed in the second act), and it was then that I found out why the bass line was so sparse during the opening. In the opposite half of the pit, there was a raven-haired co-ed covering the book that included the bass sax part. She was rehearsing the "barr-rump, barr-rump, barr-rump..." bass sax part on the only instrument she played, this being the _soprano_ clarinet.
Mystery solved; the part was being played, albeit at a pitch some two octaves above what Lennie or Stephen intended. So much for the rumbling bass line as written. It sounded more like a viola fill part in Swan Lake the way she was turning it out...
In the past, I have developed an extensive theory as to where did all the bass saxes go and why did they leave the musical building (so to speak). I've yet to see any alternative theories, but the fact still remains: they were once relatively thick on the ground but are now as scarce as well-played Eb parts.
My lead tenor player has one (a venerable old Conn horn) which he quite generously loans upon demand. But, when a local group did West Side Story a few years back, I noticed that there was no rush to cover the bass sax part. Can't think of why...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-24 16:41
You should have seen the old Mahillon bass sax that was used when I did West Side Story (fortunately I wasn't playing it as I already had my hands full with 10 other instruments) - it was from the dark ages! Very basic keywork due to it's age, well over 100 years old - only built to low B and high Eb, no rollers on the little finger keys, no articulated G#, no Bis key (only the side Bb key for this note), no linkage between RH and LH main action, no forked F# key and simple octave keys.
Most of the time when I was on bari sax, I was doubling with the bass sax at the same pitch, but whenever I was on bari sax it was always 'shock' notes - and very little legato playing.
I think the best design of Bass sax has got to be Selmer:
http://www.selmer.fr/html/english/sax/saxs/sax9/hd9.htm
Physically, theirs is low to the ground, almost like a bari in playing position, whereas all the others have the crook and mouthpiece in such a position that the whole instrument is about 2 feet off the ground.
The comparison between the two types is briefly mentioned here:
http://www.contrabass.com/pages/basssax.html
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-02-24 17:39)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-02-24 18:44
Velly interestimg discussion and experiences, Don, Ken, Chris, Terry, I'm a "lower" player also. My current problem is that our band arr. of Gershwin's Am. in Paris, has no alto cl part [?], just a contra-alto in Eb !!, so playing it on A C [as low as possible] puts it above the bass cl, sounds strange to me. So, if I cant sight-transpose it onto my bass cl, [may need my "low D" bell-tube !!!], I plan to rewrite it for chalameau voicing. We'll see, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-02-24 19:09
No question at all that the Selmer horn is the class in the ergonomic department. However, at the current purchase price it's about as far out of reach as is a contra-bassoon. So, we play on antiques like my tenor guy's Conn (pretty bad), the horrid stencil horn I used back in the early 1970's (even worse), or the relic described above.
In any event, they're not the equivalent (physically or morally) of a Reference or a Mark VI...
Not having some of the bells and whistles (high keys, low Bb or the bis) is just an inconvenience. I missed the articulated G# on the bass that I used, but I know a lot of folks who barely use that feature. The current Selmer horn has one (or at least the one I saw about ten years ago did), but at a price that is well beyond the reach of normal mortals.
I'm not a gambling man, but I always tell people that, if I were ever to hit the Powerball, one of the things that I would purchase would be a complete set of Selmer saxes, from sopranino to bass. You've got to love the feel of that Selmer keywork. The $50K hit would be small change to a big time Lotto winner like me, plus then there'd be no more getting used to Conn, Yamaha and Selmer keywork as I shifted from one horn to the other.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-24 19:57
A Selmer SA80 bass sax can be bought new in the UK for as little(!) as £8400.00 (as opposed to £16,950), depending on the supplier - and that depends if they can get them directly from the Selmer factory cutting out the distributors (Vincent Bach).
Now Selmer have replaced the MKVI sopranino and bass saxes with the SA80 series II, they have the full keywork - including the Front F key and high F#, whereas Yanagisawas and the Taiwanese copy only go to high E, don't have the articulated low B-C# connection and still have the old style RH little finger key cluster. Maybe now that Yanagisawa have redesigned their curved sopranos, they might soon redesign their sopraninos to keep up with Selmer, who themselves took on a radical redesign on their extreme saxes.
http://www.selmer.fr/html/english/sax/saxs/sax1/hd1.htm
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2006-02-26 01:37
You guys have found gen-u-wine bass sax music? Wow. I've got the sax, but I use it to play music written for other instruments.
According to an article in the 1990s, in "Saxophone Journal," only about 200 bass saxes were ever made before the great extinction, until Selmer and others started manufacturing them again in the late 1990s. I wonder if that figure might be too low, since it seems quite a few old basses have turned up since that article came out.
Another alternative to paying megabucks for a new bass sax is to find an old C. G. Conn bass from the 1920s. I've got one, with keys on both sides of the bell, made in 1926. I don't know what the full retail would be these days, but I bought mine in terrible condition for $420 in about 1997, and had it restored for $1100. That included a full overhaul with all pads and several springs, and removal of a long crease through most of the lower stack toneholes--the last owner had dropped the instrument--and repair of some other dents and damage. It's got the original case and an old Buescher mouthpiece, probably the one the original owner bought new with the instrument. The repairman left dents alone where they didn't protrude into the bore.
That sax doesn't have extended range or all the side keys modern saxes have, and the keywork is not exactly ergonomic for my small hands. In order to reach the mouthpiece and all the keys at the same time, I have to play while standing up, with a support stand, with my whole right hand moved around to the front (can't reach the thumb rest and the keys at once!), but the old monster really roars. I've never compared it side-by-side with a Selmer (old or new), but I doubt that many bass saxes have got a more powerful tone than this one. It's from Conn's "big bore" period, same vintage as the "Chu Berry" tenors, although the bass has the older-style keywork.
Except for the awkward size, this bass isn't hard to play, as long as I forget everything I ever learned about clarinet embouchure. The best embouchure on bass sax (this one, anyhow) seems to be no embouchure at all, beyond what it takes not to leak air out the corners of my mouth. Tightening up at all produces "accidental altissimo."
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2006-02-26 16:36
Lelia--
The bass sax parts I'm running into are in concert band music, but I don't think they are there so much for the timbre as they are there for the lowness. And I'm being handed them because the pieces don't have contrabass clarinet parts. (Actually, on one piece one part is marked for both instruments.) I'll e-mail you the names of the pieces if you are interested, but don't e-mail me because I just realized that the address this site has for me is out of date.
One concert band piece that we played a few years ago called for the whole range of saxophones and used them as such, particularly in a section that was basically a saxophone septet--soprano, 2 altos, 2 tenors, baritone, and bass. The piece also called for almost the entire range of wind band instruments, including all clarinets and some odd brass instruments. (Bass clarinet part went down to low C.) It was modern dutch composer Hardy Mertens' Varazioni sinfoniche su "Non potho reposare". (Almost 25 minutes long, takes a bit of rehearsal.)
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-02-26 17:20
I doubt the figure in the Saxophone Journal, even if Paul Cohen was the source.
My parents both attended high school in Saint Louis MO in the late 1930's, and between them attended three different schools. One of the relics of their experience was a set of annuals that covered all years spent at the three schools.
All three high schools had a bass sax, as evidenced by the formal posed portraits in each book. And, lest you think that there was bass sax sharing going on in the Midwest at the end of the Great Depression, at least two of the three were different instruments (as seen by key arrangement).
At the time, Saint Louis had ten schools of that general attendance size and "wealth" (dropping out the segregated black high schools and all). Ballparking, I figured that there were perhaps five of the animals housed in the Metro area.
Pulling down from the shelf a statistical abstract for the period, and doing a bit of math (and making some massive allowances for the rural character of the US at that time), I came up with a ballpark figure of perhaps three hundred of them in secondary school service during the 1930's alone.
As much as I'd like to think that American school systems were on top of things back then, I find it hard to believe that the US held more than 150% of the bass sax supply in their public school systems alone.
(Of course, it would help if the good colonel's people hadn't allowed all of the Conn production records to go up in smoke. But, what are you going to do?)
What would be even harder to believe is the fact that I've held over 1% of the totality of bass saxes in my humble hands. Nope, gotta be more than two hundred of them.
Just where they all went is the real mystery. Some were squirreled away, as was the contra-bass sax used by the Nuclear Whales and the bass sax that I had but gave up and could not recover. But, I believe that the lion's share, whether two hundred or two thousand, went the way of old Sousaphones. Probably, they "went out of vogue" as the Twenties' style of orchestration went by the wayside, then were cut up for scrap during the copper-short years of The Big One. Just a theory, but as good as any other one out there...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2006-02-26 19:42
Don Poulsen writes,
>>I'll e-mail you the names of the pieces if you are interested...>>
Thanx!--I've thought about joining a local municipal band, but realistically, I've got too much stage fright, even if I'd be hiding in the back behind my sewer pipe. Since I don't play in a band, that's probably why I'm not aware of these pieces. I just assumed there weren't any real bass sax parts out there. If anybody knows of good solo music originally intended for bass sax, I'd love to hear about that.
Terry Stibal writes,
>>>As much as I'd like to think that American school systems were on top of things back then, I find it hard to believe that the US held more than 150% of the bass sax supply in their public school systems alone.
>>
That does sound improbable. From what you say, even doubling the figure of 200 wouldn't make sense. I do suspect that the bass sax was more popular in the USA than elsewhere. This country went saxophone crazy in the 1920s.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-02-26 22:04
If you want to hear some superb bass sax playing in the jazz vein, listen to James Carter's CD "Chasin' the Gypsy" (an homage album to guitarist Django Rheinhardt). He gets around the bass like you and I (on a good day) might get around on alto or tenor. He's playing an H. Couf (Keilwerth) bass sax with a Lawton stainless steel mouthpiece, for what it's worth.
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