 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2006-01-23 18:11
Hello board members. Need some advise from those of you who do repairs.
What types of repair work/options are available to fix a 1-pieced plastic body bass clarinet that is broken at the tenon where top and bottom joints join?
Are there adhesives strong enough to glue to pieces together? Or would a replacement part need to be fabricated?
Just trying to get an idea for new eBay acquisition, haven’t yet received it, but thinking about the extend of repair required.
Any input would be much appreciated.
Thanks.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-23 19:31
Is it a Vito?
Remove all the keys and the lower pillars from the top joint, and note where each pillar goes as you do this.
Measure the toneholes at the bottom of the top joint and write them down, so you know what sizes they are when it comes to redrilling them.
You will have to turn up a new tenon out of plastic (PVC or similar, start with the bore first, then turn the outside down to the right size), and turn a socket into the top joint (to a depth of about 30-40mm) to receive the replacement tenon.
The corked part of the tenon should ideally be a fairly close fit without any cork on, I mean close in that it doesn't wobble when it's in the bottom joint socket.
The part of the replacement tenon that's to be glued into the top joint should be as tight a fit as possible without exerting any outward pressure on the joint, then glued in with Araldite or similar epoxy glue, clamped (the joint held between the jaws lengthways, or held tight between lathe centres) and left for 24-48 hours.
Then drill out the toneholes that have been blocked by the replacement tenon.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-01-23 20:25
Willy,
I just fixed such a broken bass clarinet (a Vito). I drilled six holes in the broken tenon piece and matching holes in the tenon from whence it came; inserted six tightly-fitting steel pins to bridge the break, and then bonded it all together with high-strength epoxy (after a thorough surface prep with acetone). It seemed to make a strong joint and at last report was holding together. In this case the break was 'clean' (no missing pieces or chunks, the parts fit together perfectly) so it was relatively easy.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2006-01-23 20:27
Could you explain a little further, BassetHorn? It's difficult to understand how a "one piece" instrument joins at the top and bottom *joints*-- it's one long piece (body). Do you mean: it's broken in the middle? If you mean the bottom or top tenon is broken, then Chris's description is the way to go. If it's another kind of break, you may need to consider another approach.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2006-01-23 20:58
Thank you Chris, Dave, and Ron for your response, I haven’t yet received the instrument but it was a good price so I jumped at it and bought it last night. It’s a Vito plastic contra alto has the normal upper and bottom joints but permanently fastened with screws and metal plate. It can be dissembled for repair if needed but normally handled as one piece.
I have 3 photos that the seller sent me, they show the horizontal crack on the upper joint above the Vito logo, and also show the other crack that is near the metal plate/fastener where upper and lower joints meet. To my semi trained eyes, the upper crack looks like it has been filled but the scar is still visible. The lower crack looks to be also filled and further more fastened with a screw fastener you see plumbers use.
I tried to attach them to this message and am having trouble with it. Anyone who is interested to see them, please email me at hwedinburgh@hotmail.com and I will send them to you.
According to the seller, his repair tech did the work and it has been played for last 2 years. What do you guys think of the damage and repair done to it?
Thanks.
Willy
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-24 15:33
From what I can see it's broken above the tenon and there's a Jubilee clip holding it all tight.
Looks like the best thing is to try to keep the broken part fixed to the rest of the body securely (probably best to make a tubular clamp to go around the outside that can be screwed tight), bore out the inside of the tenon into the body and insert/glue an aluminium or even a brass tube inside to keep the lot secure.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-25 11:29
I just got the other pictures - looks like it's been through the wars!
The top of the body by the crook has been broken off as well!
I'm not sure where you'll find a lathe large enough to hold the top joint in to do any work on, but if the repairs are secure the only thing I can suggest is tidy them up as best as you can. The middle tenon area has the Jubilee clip, but I know someone with a plastic Normandy bass (essentially the same as a Vito) and the middle socket broke at the ring, but that's being held solid with a Jubilee clip over the socket ring, and has been like that for about 10 years.
If the contra plays well, then I think live with the damage and treat the contra with kid gloves. Otherwise the only sensible option is to get a replacement top joint from Leblanc, but I have no idea what the cost would be.
I think due to the length and diameter of the joint it will be difficult to find the right machinery to do work on it, and using too small a lathe could do more harm than good as the joint will need to be steadied when boring the inside to fit a metal sleeve.
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2006-01-25 16:32
It’s certainly depressing looking at the battle scars this instrument has been through. Not a looker that’s for sure. I spoke with the seller and he said the middle crack with the jubilee clip has been repaired quite well, but he suspects the top crack has opened up again. He put a strip of adhesive tape over it and it plays fine.
Spoke with several local repair guys and most of them were able to tell me what repairs it would need without looking at it first. One proposed to bind the top crack with a piece of carbon for the estimated cost of $150. Other suggests I fill it with glue and wrap it with electrician tape, since it’s a beater horn now and doesn’t justify the cost it would have required to restore it.
Will let you know how it turns out. Thank you all.
Willy
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-25 18:03
One thing I thought of a while back was to mill out slots into the body (running down the joints, maybe about 3 or 4 slots around the circumference) that run above and below the crack, and into these slots screw stainless steel plates into the body (but very slightly smaller than the slots, with a series of countersunk screw holes along their length), and cover the plates in the slots to the surface of the body with filler.
Again it's getting hold of someone with a milling machine that has the size to take a contra joint. Or if you're handy with a router or chisel you could do these by hand, mounting the joint in a vice or similar.
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2006-01-25 18:47
Chris, according to the seller, the top hairline crack hasn't run all the way around the circumference, still very much intact and rigid, so what I am hoping to do first when I get it is to use some strong filler/glue to fill in the crack, then wrap some thick electrician tape around it a couple of times to get it air tight. I know, I know, it will look unsightly this home made solution, but I need to do this to assess how the instrument actually plays and its potential and where else it needs attention (pads, keys, springs, etc.)
I will see if local guys have more elegant solutions. I will also show them your valuable recommendation.
This Vito contra has same bore size as its Bb big brother, and larger than the Selmer USA/Bundy Eb contra, so I wonder how unique its sound will be.
Thanks!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-01-25 20:29
Haven't seen the instrument but a "no cost" home substitute for the carbon filament suggestion is to get some black nylon "twine" and wind it around the tube using a "hangman's knot" procedure. Then daub it with grenadilla dust filled epoxy perhaps a couple of times.
Bob Draznik
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2006-01-25 21:25
Thanks Bo. Another thing that I thought I could try is to fill in the top crack with the appropriate type of glue/cement/adhesive, then wrap it around and enforce it with a padded Jubilee clip. Hopefully they make the clip big enough for it.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-01-25 21:38
Why not just wind a layer of epoxy-soaked nylon fabric round the cracked part? Jubilee clips look better on garden hoses...
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-25 21:43
I've only tried one of these contras, and with a good mouthpiece (a Vandoren as opposed to the stock Vito one) it played well - big, fat and resonant right down to low Eb.
As for the slots with metal plates idea, they won't look too dissimilar to the C#/G# anchored pillar/plate you'll find on Leblanc clarinets (and others) at the middle tenon, but obviously at least twice the length to make for a secure repair, and hidden with filler.
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2006-01-25 21:44
Another good idea, thanks. I will look into it. Actually I don’t mind the look of the jubilee clamp, to untrained eyes, it looks like part of the clarinet with the shiny metal and all. Plus it already has a clamp at the middle tenon anyway. Willy
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-25 21:53
I was going to say another Jubilee clip could look like part of the design if there's more then one!
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2006-01-25 22:23
Just took a trip to Home Depot next door, showed them my problem and the only glue they recommend is Super Glue.
Picked up a bare metal Jubilee clamp as they don't stock padded ones. I will look for a piece of rubber for padding between the clamp and the body.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-01-26 09:06
Yeh, Home Depot is where I go for clarinet advice too. OK, what the heck is a Jubilee clip? Sounds like something a Moil would use in an emergency.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-26 09:19
A Jubilee clip:
http://www.aquaglowwaterbeds.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=1434
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-01-26 16:20
OK, Jubilee is the name of a company in the U.K. Over here there are several companies that make "hose clamps". The main problem using them on a clarinet is that the clamp strip leaves gripping marks. Best to put some kind of tape on first. Learn somethin' new every day here. The hose clamp screw thread is unique.
Bob Draznik
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2006-01-26 16:24
Yes. After I fill the hairline crack with epoxy, I will glue on a piece of rubber strip (wider than the width of the hose clamp) around the circumference of the body tube, then on it goes the hose clamp. Hopefully it will not leave a mark on the body of the instrument.
Cheap solution for sure, I am just hoping it turns out effective.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-26 16:37
Now we know what a Jubilee clip is, I still don't know what a 'Moil' is in this context - "Sounds like something a Moil would use in an emergency".
I hope it's not too rude for this board, Bob!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-01-26 17:38
BassetHorn wrote:
> Yes. After I fill the hairline crack with epoxy, I will glue
> on a piece of rubber strip (wider than the width of the hose
> clamp) around the circumference of the body tube, then on it
> goes the hose clamp.
Use the correct sort of clamp (almost a ligature ...)
http://www.kifco.com/clamps.html
and stop worrying 
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2006-02-24 00:35
Hello all, just want to give you some update on this earlier thread.?After almost a month of waiting (shipper forgot to write down my postal code on the package), I finally took delivery of my beat up Vito contra alto clarinet.?Given the poor condition that I found it in, and the fact that the shipper merely declared usical instrument?on the package, I am very, very glad that Canada Customs did not bother to open it for inspection.?The package arrived appearing sealed and everything in tact.
The case is in pretty good shape, all 5 latches work and not worn out pieces anywhere.?Handle is strong and sturdy too.
Opening the case, the horn sat there, as did the bell.?I quick looked to make sure the neck pipe is also there.?Found it in the closed compartment in good shape as well as an old metal ligature and a Leblanc mouthpiece so old the colour has turned olive green and the logo almost all worn off.?But unfortunately a fairly good size of the tip has been chipped off.?After cleaning it thoroughly I tried to play it with my other contra, and it just did not play well at all.?I am now debating if I should get someone to see if the tip is reparable or maybe put a new facing on it.
The seller threw in a new pack of Rico Royal contra alto/contrabass clarinet reeds in the case, which is great.?But it the wrong size for Leblanc contras; they are a little too narrow and don fully cover the rails of the Leblanc mouthpieces.?Although they do work OK if you are careful aligning it.?These reeds would work perfectly on my Selmer Bundy contra mouthpiece though.
Now time to give the old beat up Vito a visual check.?I went quickly to inspect the 2 horizontal cracks described by the seller.?The crack on the middle tenon that has been fastened by a hose clamp/Jubilee clip has developed upward, so you can actually open the crack when putting on forces at both end of the body.?The top crack on the top of the body just above the Vito logo is less severe, but it definitely leaks when I removed the masking tape the seller put on and tried to play it.?
Other than the 2 major cracks here, the lower stack keys seemed to have been knocked out of alignment, and many metal to metal contact areas need cork.?But these are all operable without immediate tech attention.?I managed to fix the octave keys mechanisms, so know it goes all the way up to high C.
My original idea of binding the top crack with jubille clip may not work now, because one of the key post will get in the way.?Unless I modify the jubilee clip to allow the post to protrude.?I got a bottle of gorilla glue and I used it to fill in both cracks, pretty easy to work with, I used a Q tip to apply it.?I repeat the procedure once a day over the last three days to make sure that I have a strong bond.?It works.?The horn plays actually very well after the first application.?The only thing is that the glue is white and looks ugly on the body.?So I took a strip of black foam and glue over it, made it a little more eye appealing.
So for now, the horn is fully playable.?With the 2 cracks filled, octave mechanism fixed, and a good mouthpiece.?I also reworked the springs for tension, oiled the screws on the posts, and put in some cork to silence the actions.?After a good wiping down, the horn looks pretty presentable.
This will be my outdoor gig horn.?It has a big burly sound, uncomplicated and to the point.?Positive key action, and pretty good dynamic range.?I should do a side by side comparison with my Selmer Bundy.?One thing I like about this Vito is the high neck angle though, much more player friendly.?The drawback is the design, it only has the one Eb side trill key.
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