 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Greek Style
Date: 2005-12-04 10:30
hi again everybody theres just one thing left that i wonder about.
What happens if you take a G3 and press the LH pinky key, the right one (The long LH pinky key that you press to take the E3) on an albert.
Is this an alternate F#3 on the Albert system?
Post Edited (2005-12-04 12:44)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-04 13:25
You have 2 options for F#3 - Th xxx|E/B xxx (this is the best one as G# is taken with the right little finger)
or Th xxx|F#/C# xxx F/C if going up chromatically.
Also you can do an excellent low E-F# (or B-C# over the break) trill by using the first fingering, and trilling with the RH F/C key only. Th xxx|E/B xxx trilling F/C.
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Author: Greek Style
Date: 2005-12-04 13:38
Ok so it should be the same on the german simple systems or oehler, right?
Post Edited (2005-12-04 13:45)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-04 13:49
Yeah, as long as you have the 2 large key cups that close together with the right hand F/C key - but the upper one of the two is also connected to the E/B key to give F#/C# by using that key (E/B) only.
Often called the 'Patent C#' mechanism.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-12-04 13:52)
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Author: Greek Style
Date: 2005-12-04 13:57
Thank you very much chris, that was very helpful.
lol this is some complicated ****. do you know any clarinets that have the patent c#?
so i can maybe look at some photos or something
Post Edited (2005-12-04 14:03)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-04 14:01
Only German systems have this fitted as standard nowadays.
Boehm players can't do a B-C# trill as good as them (we can do the trill, but it isn't as in tune) - only the full Mazzeo system Selmers have an articulated F#/C# like a saxophone or oboe.
Compare the two systems - basic German system (with Patent C#):
http://www.amati.cz/english/production/instruments/Files/acl/german/acl_242g.htm
Boehm system:
http://www.amati.cz/english/production/instruments/Files/acl/acl_201g.htm
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-12-04 14:06)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-12-04 14:07
I believe the patent for the C#/G# [reverse order, high'low] came from about 1875, so the recent of most of my old Alberts have it, distinguished by 2 adjacent F/C pads and an actuating "arm" usually having as set screw for adjustment. This is "off the top of my head", will check and report any errors. HELP ! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Greek Style
Date: 2005-12-04 14:09
i'm very interessed in a yamaha YCL-457-18 German simple system. i looked at some pictures. can you see if it has the patent C#?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-04 14:11
That's right, though even the Boosey&Co ones from the early 20th Century still had the pointed arm without the adjustment (the underside being corked) - the German systems and full Oehlers fit the adjusting screw for better regulation.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-04 14:22
All Yamaha German and Oehler systems have the 'Patent C#' as standard.
There are some old simple systems I've seen on eBay that dn't have the Patent C# - and the chances are they won't be at modern pitch (A440-442) - the F/C key and cup looks like a (straight) soprano sax C key - with only a single pad cup on these, and best avoided.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-12-04 14:23)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-04 14:29
The Yamaha 457-18 is similar to the Amati in the link above, but as general rule of thumb, all modern non-Boehm (ie. German systems) being built today will be equiped with the Patent C#.
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Author: Greek Style
Date: 2005-12-04 14:31
in other means it was easier to trill E-G/B-D before the patent C# came but now it's easier to trill E3-F#3/B-C# .
Post Edited (2005-12-04 14:36)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-04 14:39
E-G is still just as easy (you have to use both LH and RH keys for this) as it was previously, but E-F# is even better as only one finger is used to trill with - just the RH F/C key - and it's in tune, and easier for G-F# (or D-C#) as only the E/B key is needed for the F# or C# - (G/D) xxx|xxx - (F#/C#) xxx|E/B xxx.
On Boehms low E-G (or D-B over the break) is easy - either of the E/B keys is used, but probably better with the RH one.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-12-04 14:41)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-04 14:48
No problem.
I have to go back to work now, but I think there might be some Albert/German system players on the Ethnic/Kletzmer board that can help.
But don't worry about the Yamaha - it will have all the essential mechanisms you need so when you move up to a Hammerschmidt or Wurlitzer Oehler system, you shouldn't have any trouble making the transition.
I'd also recommend you to request a catalogue from Yamaha's website - this has much better detailed pictures of some of the German system and Oehler system clarinets, and they do a specifically Oehler/German system clarinets catalogue, probably all in German but there's still plenty to go on.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-12-04 14:58)
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Author: Greek Style
Date: 2005-12-04 15:06
ok chris good. so what is the main difference between the yamaha ycl-457-18 and a albert? i cant find one thing that separates the yamaha ycl-457-18 from the albert. exept for the extra G# lever. I mean fingering difference not bore,sound etc. again tnx very much for the help
Post Edited (2005-12-04 16:12)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-12-04 18:24
Rendall speaks [well] of the Pat C#/G# as "circa 1862" and that various renditions of it were claimed in some 4 patents, Mahillion et al. His description is on page 111 [3 rd ed.] in Chap "History from 1800", along with the cl's "growth" in keying complexity and benefit. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-12-04 18:35
Sorry, I repeated my earlier mistake of C#/G# . It should be just Patent C# or C#/F# [high/low]. I mixed it with the later Articulated C#/G# [low/high] a Full Boehm keying structure. To soon oldt, too late schmardt. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Kalakos
Date: 2005-12-04 22:14
Hi:
With respect to the "patent C#" .
We Greeks call it "mono do" (single C) or "diplo do" (double C). If it has one cup below the right little finger, it is "mono." If it has tow cups there, it is "diplo." I had always played clarinets with "diplo" (two cups), but a friend in Greece gave me his best Buffet C in 1981. Only problem was it was "mono" and required more difficult fingering. "No problem" he said I'd get used to it. Within a month or so I was used to it. I use those fingerings now, even on the "diplo" keyed instruments. The Amati has the "diplo" set up, and I bet the Yamaha does too.
Good luck.
Kalakos
Kalakos Music
http://www.TAdelphia.com
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Author: Kalakos
Date: 2005-12-05 06:28
<<euxaristo file>>
Para Kalo. You are welcome. The Yahama with the double do will be a good system for what you're looking for I think.
Kalakos
Kalakos Music
http://www.TAdelphia.com
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Author: Greek Style
Date: 2005-12-05 12:41
Yes i think so to, i'm looking for a system as close to the albert as possible. and the only thing that separates the albert and the yamaha is the extra G# lever (Same on amati). maybe bore,sound etc. Apo po ise re file?
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-12-05 12:42
Chris P has a post to add to this thread, but appears to have computer problems. I'll attempt to "paraphrase" his comments later if needed. This thread is very informative for us Albert lovers, I'll research Al Rice's "Classical Clarinet" for more info and report as well.. Cheers. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-05 13:50
The Yamahas (and other German systems) are like the Albert system in essence, but they have more keys and mechanisms added to help with playability and tuning on certain notes - they're not really seperated as such, they're further up the evolutionary ladder, the old 5-keyed boxwood clarinet of the Classical era being the most basic, and as production techniques and playing demands improved over time, so did clarinets. There's an evolutionary line-up in your other thread.
And the pinnacle of them being the full Oehler system - the basic fingering on these is like the Albert system.
You should be able to change between your Albert system and Yamaha with no trouble at all, but the Yamaha will have extra keys to help get around things better - like the left hand Ab/Eb key - you won't need to slide your right hand pinky from the F/C to the Ab/Eb key, and the top joint rings will make the throat F# better (Th ooo|ooo) as you won't need to sharpen it with the side F key.
YES! IT POSTED!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-12-05 13:52)
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Author: Greek Style
Date: 2005-12-05 14:18
aha ok so in other means the yamaha i was talking about yhe Ycl-457-18, only has the extra G# similar to the cheap amati thats the only difference. but a full oehler has still the basic fingering as albert or german simple system but all the extra keys to make it easier. ok thanks for having patience. cheers
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