 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2005-11-20 11:31
Have any of you come across the view that only a certain class of musicians are allowed to perform certain works publically. Some of my colleagues have expresses the vies that only players playing full time in a professional orchestra should be allowed to put on concerts at which the public pay. some of these collegues have also put forward the view that only members of this same full time professional orchestra can really teach.I am interested in your views on this.
Regards Chris.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2005-11-20 14:30
Heck...I'm American, so I'll blunder my way through this one...
I think that's a load of garbage!
I play folk music, and people pay to come to my gigs...and I do not play in a professional orchestra! I am classically trained, though, and do play classical chamber stuff on the side. My trio will be giving a recital next year, and we'll have to charge if only to pay for the use of the hall!
I also teach. I consider myself an excellent teacher of beginner through advanced high school students. I don't want to train the next level of pros. I just want to make these kids the best they can be. I don't think an orchestra pro could do this!
Katrina
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-20 18:40
If only 'members of this same full time professional orchestra can really teach' - I'd like to see better teachers here other than the usual dross that seem to get all the work, but haven't even mastered the basics themselves - and pass on their incompetence to their pupils!
Not to mention they haven't the enthusiasm.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-11-20 19:16)
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2005-11-20 18:46
Teaching requires some skills, and some education (also in 'learning how to teach), but best players are not always best teachers and vice versa.
I think a good teacher knows how much he can learn his pupils, and knows when a 'better' teacher is required. Valid for all levels !!
Playing concerts and have people pay for them, is allowed for everybody. Tf it isn't good enough you'll notice soon enough :-), and what is 'good enough' ?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-11-20 19:11
Utter rubbish, IMHO. That sounds a whole lot like wishful thinking combined with mafia-style protectionism.
So those chosen few who are fortunate enough to get a full-time employment should be also the chosen few that are allowed to play and to teach? A rather elitist idea, I might say.
A good player doesn't automatically make a good teacher. A good pro must love his métier, but doesn't necessarily need to like people. A good teacher first and foremost loves people (why else would she/he want to pass the knowledge?)
--
Ben
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-11-20 19:18
American here, and I haven't heard views like that, but here's what I think about them anyway . . . Quote:
Some of my colleagues have expresses the vies that only players playing full time in a professional orchestra should be allowed to put on concerts at which the public pay. That's wrong. Anyone can charge whatever they want for a performance. Whether the public CHOOSES to pay or not is not up to them, but if you are an amateur and want to rent a hall and charge people for your solo rendition of "Mary had a Little Lamb" is completely up to you. It shouldn't have ANYTHING to do with whether you "should be allowed" or not. If it's not against the law, you ARE allowed (or whatever system you have there in the UK).Quote:
some of these collegues have also put forward the view that only members of this same full time professional orchestra can really teach. Pretty much the same answer as above. I could (if I wanted to) offer my teaching "services" to people. However much I charge is up to me. And it's up to THEM if they would want to continue to take lessons from me or not, or whether to take lessons with a member of a fulltime orchestra.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-11-20 21:04
As an Englishman - and therefore British - I find the title of this posting offensive.
You are in Oz, I gather from your address. Would you be pleased to find a posting here implying that all Aussies are convicts?
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2005-11-20 22:10
I can safely say that none of the hundreds of professional British musicians I know have these views.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2005-11-21 01:39
My favorite troupe of classical performers, Quartetto Gelato, formed when they were excluded from local gigs - which went to the Toronto symphony regulars.
This lead them to consider touring, and offering a more accessible programme to their audience. "Many decry the crass commercialization of classical music in the Americas; and we would like to be at the vanguard of that movement."
In short, they made a niche for themselves when thwarted in their own backyard... and they wanted to tour with an accordion.
We're blessed on this side of the Atlantic (or Pacific for that matter) to have so many capable players in so many venues - we can vote for our favorite performers by taking lessons and attending concerts.
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2005-11-21 05:12
David thank you for your comments. I didn't mean to insult English players (I am one myself despite living down under in Aus with the convicts) I was trying to draw attention to the parallels between the views I posted and the Britisch Class system of last Century. Sorry if it caused offence.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-11-21 07:10
If only professional orchestra players could teach then there weren't enough teachers.
Also, I'm in the performance department in my university, but we have a class about teaching methods. Our teacher explained how teaching and being a good player is totally different things (which is obvious), but he also told us who was his worst teacher, and it is one of the most famous and best saxophone players in the world.... (not sure the BBoard leaders would allow to post who it is)
"only players playing full time in a professional orchestra should be allowed to put on concerts at which the public pay."
Is this a joke?
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Author: bawa
Date: 2005-11-21 09:16
Such sweeping comments could hardly be true/believable about an entire country; before all the people on the other side of the Atlantic jump to say "we are different."
Where I am, there are teachers who are members of th symphonic orchestra and others who are just teachers, or teachers who play in a quartet etc.
While I agree the ability to teach does equate to the ability to play, I have realised that "non-orchestra" teachers have a lot more time to dedicate to teaching. Its not that the former don't do their job, but the latter always squeeze in extra time for students who may need it.
The other disadvanatge I have seen is that orchestra players are more prone to changing class times, days, etc because the orchestra has this or that extra rehearsal or they are playing away or going away on tour.
Apart from that, some people are natural born teachers, others work hard and become good teachers, and there are certain people who never mearn to teach (in a non music academic context, I had a lot of leading world academics at University, and so many of them were awful lecturers)...
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Author: Steam Clarinet
Date: 2005-11-21 10:20
Hokum! The UK has a thriving amateur music-making scene, and amateur groups are well within their rights to charge people to come and listen. Indeed, they have to - how else would they cover some of the associated costs, e.g. rental of the performance venue?
There may be a few who feel that concerts should only be put on by professionals. There are also people who think the earth is flat. What an amateur group might lack in ability it certainly makes up for in enthusiasm.
As for teaching, I can only echo previous comments that a good performer does not necessarily make a good teacher.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-11-21 11:21
"a good performer does not necessarily make a good teacher"
That may be true, but a BAD performer is highly unlikely to be a good teacher!
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Author: graham
Date: 2005-11-21 11:47
Ironically, perhaps, the association of this attitude with the Victorian British class system is to get things completely the wrong way round. The issue with the class system that was so criticised (notably by W S Gilbert) was that those who were born to a society position and wealth all too often took jobs for which they were hopelessly unqualified, with unfavourable results. Only in certain aspects of society (notably the Navy, despite Gilbert's targeting of that institution) was talent the main cause of promotion and preferment.
Now, it seems that the Australian professional orchestral players are arguing for the direct opposite, namely that no-one who is not of the highest calibre who chooses to dedicate his life to music should either teach an instrument or take part in a concert for which the audience pays money. This is the opposite extreme, which brings to mind racketeering of the kind that descendants from convicts should intuitively understand better than most.
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Author: archer1960
Date: 2005-11-21 12:05
BelgianClarinet said
> Teaching requires some skills, and some education (also in 'learning how to > teach), but best players are not always best teachers and vice versa.
I'd go further and say that the best players are *seldom* the best teachers in many fields of endeavor. IME, when people are the very best at something, it usually came quite easy to them, so they didn't have to work very hard at. Therefore, they never had to find other ways of learning it. I know this is true in mathematics and athletics, and it seems likely to apply in music as well.
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2005-11-21 23:59
...and those who can't do, teach, and those who can't teach, teach gym...
Old joke. ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
Steve Epstein
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