 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Iacuras
Date: 2005-10-21 11:20
I know that this is still a projected model, but what do you all think of the Stephen Fox Bass Clarinet. I think it's interesting how he's changing it. The triple register key will be pretty cool, and the straight bell should make it interesting. Opinions?
Steve
"If a pretty poster and a cute saying are all it takes to motivate you, you probably have a very easy job. The kind robots will be doing soon."
"If you can't learn to do something well, learn to enjoy doing it poorly."
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-10-21 13:41
I know nothing about the new model, but I'd bet two things:
a) Stephen Fox's new bass clarinet will be fabulous;
b) I'll never be able to afford one.
Such is life........Quality and innovation don't come cheap.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-10-21 14:44
Well, add to that the unfortunate fact that any bass clarinet, even the bottom of the barrel Selmer USA product, is going to cost significantly more than a "normal" instrument, and you're already set up for failure.
Most of us start on soprano. A decent student soprano clarinet can be had for something under $500.00. That's a nice chunk of change, but it's not (in these days of $1,000 a head cruise vacations for the masses) out of reach for most families. That's why we have thousands of serious and semi-serious students of Bb soprano clarinet.
A quick visit to the Music 1-2-3 website shows the cheapest bass clarinet (a Vito model) coming in at something like $1,300. Almost triple the price for a "beginner's instrument", if you will. And, a lot more of a bite out of a family budget, one that is not likely to be taken.
So, most who play bass clarinet will be forever condemned to be at the beck and call of the organization who has the tin to buy the horn in the first place. I know that many of us on here are exceptions (I bought my first pro bass back in 1971, and have owned three of them to date), but for every one of us there are dozens who (or whose parents) decide that $1,000 is doable, but $6,000 (for a low end Leblanc "semi-pro" horn) is certainly not.
Fewer horns equal fewer players equals less bass clarinet expertise out there to be tapped. And that's a shame, for the bass is one of the best "color" instruments that there is, with demand for it in all areas of the current "commercial music field".
Back in the day when I taught (early 1980's), I insisted that my bass clarinet students who were serious about playing the instrument should have their own horn, not a shared school instrument. I ran into some flak from some parents over this position, and lost two students over my insistence.
However, those who complied rapidly found that they were able to "keep up" with the soprano clarinet players in their age group because they had a horn that was solely under their control. All of the squeaking and squawking that are part of the young bass clarinet players "problems" went away once the keys on the horns were properly maintained and the kid had a decent mouthpiece.
I still see this approach as vital to teaching something like the tuba, the 'cello or the bass clarinet. Saddle a child with a horn, even a pro quality horn, that leaks and malfunctions after being abused by multiple users (and high school kids are among the worst of these in the world), and they might as well be playing football for all of the "musicianship" you'll be able to communicate to them. Other teachers in town may have wanted to take that task on just for the money, but I was being realistic with their expectations for the child and the experience of the ones who complied bore that decision out.
My substitute bass player's parents recently shelled out "big money" to buy the lad an expensive 3/4 size contrabass. The way that he plays the thing, it was money well spent, but the cost means that he'll not have a car for a few more years yet. The unfortunate lot of the bass player, the baritone sax player, the tubist, and the kettledrummer, I'm afraid...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-10-21 15:38
The usual triple register mechanism has separate holes for the throat Bb, clarion B through Eb and above Eb. The photo of Steve's prototype on his site http://www.sfoxclarinets.com/Bass_Clar.html isn't big enough to show whether it has this layout.
I would love to try a bass with three register holes -- one for B through Eb, a second for E through G# and a third for above G# (like the sax). A problem would be that altissimo C# through F would use the middle hole. Keeping it in adjustment would also be a nightmare.
I've always thought it should be possible to sing like a cello on bass clarinet, but even the best ones I've tried have remained earthbound rather than soaring.
Steve says the bore on his model will be quite a bit smaller than on French instruments, with a special, smaller mouthpiece. Maybe that's what I'm dreaming of. The straight bell should also be a big help.
Given the price, though, I may have to wait until I hit the lottery.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-10-21 16:00
Terry, you're sounding a bit cynical today. I hear what you're saying, but have a slightly different view on a couple of points.
In your last paragraph, you lamented about a young man who'll not have a car for a few years because his parents bought him an expensive contrabass (viol). In my opinion, this is a good trade-off because, as you indicated, he'll get good use from it and, I believe, most youngsters don't really need cars as soon as they can drive. They'd be better off, from a safety standpoint, not being on the streets until they've gained a few more years of maturity. And, if he needs a car, he'd probably be better off in an inexpensive, under-powered old clunker than a brand-new car that many parents spoil their kids with.
And regarding the high cost of bass clarinets, if you amortize it over the life of the instrument, they aren't that expensive. When I was in high school, I was stuck with a leaky school instrument that was hard to play. My parents bought me a refurbished professional-level instrument that had been retired from the local university. I used that instrument for at least 25 years before buying a new low-C instrument--one that I expect I will be using and getting pleasure out of for the remainder of my life, which I would hope to be several years. During that time, it should retain much of its value (were I to sell it).
Compare that to buying a new car. The new car will cost three or four times as much, will be more costly to maintain and repair (not to mention license and insure), and every half dozen years (for the average person), it will be traded in for almost nothing in the purchase of another equally costly vehicle.
I'd say that buying a quality bass clarinet is not such a bad deal.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-10-21 17:17
Don, you're echoing me, only in different words.
I agree that the cost isn't that much <in terms of a family and student who are committed to learning to play the instrument>. The problem is that few at the high school level have that level of commitment (and probably rightfully so; it's not a career at that point, it's an advocation at the best.)
When I needed to convince the parent, I first took a good look at the intent of the student. Those who have taught know what I mean there. If that intent was there, and they <wanted> to progress, then the need for a "good" horn (one that was not kicked around by every Tom Dick and Tiffany in the bandroom) was what I had to sell. In virtually every case I succeeded.
Having said that, not in one case would I have ventured to say "Get a good pro used horn." Even with limitations of the "single register key" arrangement that are present on most of the "student horns" notwithstanding, there's just not enough justification to go the pro route at that point. But, you can make one hell of a lot of very good music on a high quality student horn of any types (CSOs excepted, of course).
(And, speaking of CSOs, last month during the hurricane evacuation, I spent a good half hour fiddling with the Ridenour-designed bass clarinet while visiting Brook-Mays' warehouse up in Dallas. While I didn't play it (my horns and mouthpieces all being back on high ground down in Houston), I did run a hundred or so scale exercises with my fingers on same. Aside from some particularly egregious workmanship issues (one key touch piece would push past the engagement point when trying to operate the "basset" keys on the lower joint), the thing felt "funny". Funny as in "worse than the oddes of the feelings I ever had with a Leblanc instrument" funny, Funny as in "Geez, this is almost like an Albert system clarinet" funny. Most of what I felt were differences on set height of the plateaux, odd reaching needed for the left hand little finger keys, and the basset keys aligned so that they were just plain awkward to use. Sure wish that I had had my mouthpiece to play it for a while, though.)
In the case of young David (who has been a bass viol phenom since he first stepped up to a quarter-sized one doghouse a few years back; he rips through Russian Sailors Dance, both arco and pitz with the same precision that I do on the bass clarinet), the car is a bit of a critical issue, not just one of childhood desire. String bass players don't carry their "horn" very far, remember; you need the car to get the silly thing moved around. But, I agree that (in that case) they made the right decision.
In the end, it was the right choice for a kid who will (not might, will; he's just that damn'd good) get a full boat scholarship to study at the college level. My wife, who taught him at the first grade level when we first moved down here, counts him as one of the most talented kids that she has ever dealt with, and she is pleased that he has gone as far as he has to date.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-10-21 18:42
TKS Ken - I Fav.-Placed the SF link, very interesting, but couldn't see much in his pic. I end up being slightly confused re: how many {truly register, NOT including a "Stubbins-type" Bb} tone holes are contemplated by Fox. Like the oboe's 3?, the small half-hole for 1st finger/left, then the [higher level] low and high?? [Not having our mid-staff Bb "problem" !!] My Selmer 33 has the half-hole [for Alt.], the "high clarion" on the neck, and shares the low clarion with the "pinch" Bb, another "fair" compromise. Some Leblancs have the "Stubbins" form as shown in some of their pats. {Have copies, will post}. I made several quickie patent searches to see if Fox had any US pat or publ. application, NO. So the most recent pat activity on bass cl keying, I can find, are 3 to Yamaryo of Yamaha, but haven't been able to distinguish those ?improvements? on their newer basses. Any thots, anyone? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Sirene
Date: 2005-10-22 00:36
Long, long, ago, I had a Hammerschmidt low C bass clarinet with a straight bell. It had a narrow bore and german-faced mouthpiece with Boehm fingering. It was a prototype - as far as I know the one one that was made.
I discussed it on another thread:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=181077&t=180954
It was a great instrument. Compact, focused sound, carried well, worked in every situation I found myself playing in. So much more satisfying to play than the big-flabby-sounding school bass clarinet I had been using before.
One of my biggest regrets was selling it for almost nothing because I thought I was done playing music (well I was done for 25 years ... but seem to be starting back up).
(I'm still trying to track it down if anyone runs across it.)
Based on that experience, I'd say that Mr. Fox has the right idea. It'd be great to hear from someone who has tried one of those instruments.
- Sirene
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2005-10-22 21:19
I played on his basset horn in at the ICA in Columbus, OH in 1998, and it was arguably the best harmony clarinet I have ever played on. Not that I am a great low clarinet player. And I have no connection to Mr. Fox other than owning one of his C instruments. I agree with Mr. Spiegelthal it will be fabulous.
You will have to travel to Toronto to pick it up. Plan on spending time playing with it. If you can get studio space nearby to practice on it for a few days, you might be able to schedule time to take it in for secondary adjustments, without having to travel to Toronto a second time (not that I think anyone needs a particular reason to visit Toronto). Mr. Fox's thinking is that it is easier to take wood off than to put it back on, so it will initially be setup somewhat conservatively.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-22 21:23
Hmmm.... I wonder if he'll offer to fit a three-vent speaker mechanism to an existing Buffet Prestige bass?
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