 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2005-10-21 02:20
Hi all
Some may remember a post about 2 years ago about my new Leblanc Concerto Bb having a slight buzz around long B / C sometimes D.
Over ther past 2 years, it's gotten much worse and I had a masterclass yesterday with a well-known clarinetist (in Australia at least I think) and he said the buzz drove him mad. I've learned to filter it out over the years.
After class he asked to look at my clarinet and, just like my repairer over the past 2 overhauls, and my teacher and many others who have looked for it, was not able to find it. It doesn't appear to be in any of the keys and he said it may be in the thumb or register key tube, but the results could not be repeated in the lower register with the same fingerings. He said it may well be some strange tonal thing, maybe caused by excess wood around a tone hole which would be easily removed.
I've been thinking of sending it to the Brannens but without knowing if the buzz is a key thing or a tonal thing, I don't want to send it off until I'm sure I know what it is and that they'd be able to get rid of it.
If it is a permanant tonal thing, I'd be better off simply buying a new clarinet, right?
I just need ideas as to what it could be, and wonder if anyone's had a similar problem and how you fixed it, and if anyone knows if this is a problem Brannen Woodwinds have experience with/could fix. In the interim, I'll certainly email them because I need to make a booking anyway.
Thanks all.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-10-21 02:32
If you find out from the Brannens, please do me a favor and post here. I hear a definite "buzz" in my long B as well, and wonder what possible causes/solutions there might be. Don't know how pronounced yours sounds, but mine is enough to annoy ME.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-10-21 02:41
Often a buzz is caused by a miniscule amount of free play between a key tube and the rod screw running through it -- this can be corrected by swedging (swaging) the key tube -- compressing it to fit more tightly around the rod.
Also, the four-spatula key cluster is very prone to buzzes from mechanical interferences, one of the most common being the upper top spatula (Eb/Ab) getting bent down a bit and closing up the very slight gap between it and the the tube of the next spatula which runs along/underneath the upper one. It's hard to explain, but if you look closely at that cluster you'll see what I mean.
It could be a loose bell ring (usually the one at the large flared end) which is buzzing on the 'long' notes. Try clamping the bell between your legs while you play and see if the buzz disappears.
It could be a loose register vent tube --- very easy to check that -- take off the register key, grab the vent tube with your fingers and see if you can turn it or pull it right out of the wood (you shouldn't be able to).
It could be buzzing of the pins at the ends of the two long l.h. spatula keys (where the pins go into the corresponding holes in the two r.h. cluster keys), if the 'fishskin' wrapping around the pins is worn or has fallen out (which is extremely common).
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2005-10-21 02:53
Thanks David. Everything you've mentioned has been tested, except the register key tube, but I assume my repairer checked that as well. Well, I should assume it WASN'T checked, actually. I'll give it a go, thanks.
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Author: Michelle
Date: 2005-10-21 03:07
I have the same problem on my new-to-me older alto clarinet. Long B & C in the upper register buzz noticeably. Lower register E & F are slightly buzzy but if I get a too-hard reed on there it REALLY exacerbates the problem in the lower end.
I have had it to 2 local techs 3 times and it is still there. Tonight I found a leak in the lowest pad (E/C). I took the bell off, pinched that pad closed with my knees and it still buzzed, albeit a little less. Could have just been muffled by my knees though.
I found play in the long tubes on the lower joint - I can scoot the tube up and down at least a mm. The connections between the LH spatula keys and the corresponding keys is good - fishskin in place. I am sure it could just do with a total overhaul.
Too bad I don't have time to send it off - Dave S, I still owe you my Couesy and my bass clarinet to look at, guess I should send the alto too. =(
Thanks for letting me mooch off your post, Morrigan, and thanks for the advice Dave S. Any more suggestions from afar??
Michelle
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-10-21 11:34
Interesting...
I had my A clarinet overhauled during summer. When I picked it up, I was immediately aware of some buzzing, especially on the long B fingering. I hadn't had this problem before the repairs. The technician who had done my repair wasn't there, so the other guy checked it out. He made absolutely sure that all the pads were sealing correctly. I was still aware of a bit of buzzing, but thought it might just be my playing after a long summer break!
For two months I've been playing a lot on this instrument (I'm professional, by the way). Sometimes the buzzing occurs on several notes from long B upwards- C, C#, D and even E. Sometimes it's not there at all. Last week I took it back to the technician. He was on holiday, so his assistant took a look. We spent an hour an a half checking that all the pads sealed, there there was no "play" between any of the keys and the rod screws, that the register key tube wasn't loose, that the correspondance between the two joints was correct, that the ring on the bell wasn't loose, etc. I even tried a few other register tubes. We couldn't find anything. To me it really feel more like a leak than a buzzing loose part, if you know what I mean.
Today I took the clarinet back to the technician who originally did the overhaul. I'll be picking it up this afternoon. If he finds out what the problem was I'll post it here. Hope he does!!!
Post Edited (2005-10-21 12:48)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-21 13:39
Check the trill key guide and the gaps between the trill keys, and all other keys, especially the low E/B key barrel to see if it isn't touching the F#/C# pillar or key arm below.
If there is skin covering the LH lever pins, add a drop of gearbox oil to the pins and the holes in the connecting arms to dampen any noise.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-10-21 14:30
Dave and Chris have "covered the waterfront" very well. Considering any [wear] "free-play" between key tubes and screws/posts, as a Temporary Swedge-Solution/Analysis Method, I use folded-up wax-paper strips, to about 2mm square, inserted between the posts and tubes, pierced by the screws to take up the play, and lubricate-fill any gaps between screws and tubes. Swedging, as pointed out, [likely very necessary], and possibly a few drops of heavier oil in your key-oil bottle may help. If the wear is great, new pads may be needed. AM thots, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: William
Date: 2005-10-21 14:48
I've had the same buzzing problems on my LeBlanc Concertos (A & Bb) and usually, its been caused by: 1) a long rod screw that has worked it way loose and simply needed tightening; 2) either a loose lower bell or barrel ring due to seasonal changes; or 3) worn skin bufferes on the long lower joint left little finger B and C# keys. Any of these issues can cause either an audible buzz or a strange harmonic while playing B5. Additionally, after my repair tech person makes the necessary adjustment/repair, she usually give my clarinet a quick lube job which also seems to help eliminate any subtil (or otherwise) remaining noises. Hope this helps.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-10-21 21:34
Well, my tech solved my problem, and the solution was suprising...
Of course he checked everything again, and there were no problems that he could find. The was a littel bit of "play" between the upper and lower joints, so he put on a new metal ring and re-did the cork. This didn't help. When I went in and demonstrated the problem, he immediately had an idea, which he tried. On each of the four large pads (for the low E, F, F# and Ab keys) he put a small circle of sealing glue on the pad (smaller than the circle indentation that the hole makes in the pad). In his words this would "seal the pad". I don't really understand why gore-tex pads would need sealing?? Anyway, I don't care, because the buzzing sound has miraculously disappeared! He told me that he has tried this with several clarinets in the past, and it has always worked when the problem couldn't be found elsewhere. He said that one could also use something like nail varnish to do the same job.
Morrigan, if you've tried everything else, why don't you try this? It sounds like exactly the same probelm I had. Has anybody else heard of this?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-21 21:40
Oh right, so he's varnished the middle of the pads - I've seen some oboe repairers do this on skin pads, and similar to what some bassoon repairers do, but they use wax inside the impression to keep the pads flat.
But I don't use skin or GoreTex pads myself. I've often thought of putting a stitch in large leather pads to keep the middle from bulging, but never get round to dong that.
GoreTex is a porous material, maybe this will make it more airtight.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2005-10-21 23:57
...But I have cork and leather pads! Plus the buzzing was still there with 'standard' fish-skin pads before the overhaul.
In my next lesson I'm gonna mix and match joints with my teacher's concerto - then I can isolate it for good between upper and lower joints, or if it's a ring (which I've checked anyway).
I think I might just buy a new instrument.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-10-22 00:15
I don't think Goretex is porous in the normal sense of the word. If you try to blow air through it, then you meet seemingly complete resistance.
It is porous at a molecular level, similar to...
- water passes through cellophane in an experiment demonstrating osmosis.
- Some component of air gradually passes through the rubber of some pneumatic tubes for vehicles.
- Blow up a plastic bag and seal it.... in a fairly short time it has partially collapsed because of the air passing through it.
Goretex's claim to fame is that it allows the passage of water VAPOUR but not water liquid, although if the fabric is covered with water (liquid) I very much doubt that much vapour will pass either. IMO this property of Goretex is irrelevant to instrument pads, and I cannot see it being responsible for a buzz.
I can't imagine Goretex vibrating against the underlying felt, but I wonder if there is anther layer of material behind the Goretex, which the Goretex is vibrating against. Or perhaps The Goretex is delaminating, with one layer vibrating against another.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-10-22 08:06
Gordon wrote:
> I don't think Goretex is porous in the normal sense of the word. If you try to
> blow air through it, then you meet seemingly complete resistance.
Goretex pads? I heard of Neoprene pads, but Goretex?
Bloody trade names often confuse the heck out of me...
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-22 14:31
Buffet have used Gore-Tex pads in their Prestige, Vintage, Festival and Tosca models, and the throat Bb vent/lower speaker vent and upper speaker key on their basses for several years now - they look like white leather pads, but smoother.
They do stain as well - turning yellowish or light brown, just like skin pads.
Morrigan,
Check the regulation of both pads when playing B over the break with the LH E/B lever alone (pressing lightly to close them, and testing with a feeler gauge cut from the thinnest cigarette paper you can find - in the form of an elongated triangle, tapering to around 2mm at the tip, use this thin end as the feeler gauge, and make sure the glue isn't on this part) - you want either equal pressure on both pads when closed, or the lower one only slightly lighter when tested. If the upper pad (F/C key) is lighter or too light compared to the lower one (E/B key), this can cause a buzz.
And test both the lower pads individually around their circumference with a feeler gauge as well - they should be mounted slightly lighter by the key barrel side and heavier at the front when closed with light finger pressure. If the paper can slide easily in and out anywhere around the circumference of the pad and tonehole when the key is closed, that means the pad isn't closing at that point.
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Author: genekeyes ★2017
Date: 2005-10-22 14:56
If you have a cork pad in the register key, check the way the cork is sitting in the cup. If the outer edge of the pad is straight and flush with the edge of the cup the air exiting the vent may not have enough clearance...try rounding the outer edge of the pad with a very fine sandpaper and see if it helps...but be sure not to interfere with the portion of the pad that actually sits on the vent hole..........
I had the problem for quite a while and this is what it turned out to be. Once the cork edge was feathered inward...........the buzz disappeared. I'm sure there are many other possibilities but you seem to have covered quite a few..this might be worth checking.
good luck/gk
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-22 15:11
I do that as a matter of course with speaker key pads, so they end up looking somewhat like Mount Fuji. Seat them as normal, then trim around the edge with a razor leaving the impression alone and paper them up to finish. Leaving this kind of profile \_/ (instead of |__|) - the narrow side against the speaker bush.
And have a minimum venting of 2mm as well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-10-22 15:12)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-10-22 15:34
Morrigan wrote: "...But I have cork and leather pads! Plus the buzzing was still there with 'standard' fish-skin pads before the overhaul."
Since I'm not really sure why this "sealing" worked, I'm also not really sure if the material of the pads matters much. Why don't you just try this as an experiment anyway? You've got nothing to lose really. Just put a small dab of nail varnish on the center of each of the four large pads at the low end of the instrument. If it does't help, it doesn't matter. If the nail varnish really bothers you, then take it off with nail varnish remover. Your problem sounds so similar to mine that I'm really curious to know if this would solve your problem too!
I'm sure all the techs that looked at your instrument have tried all the other suggestions that people have come up with.
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