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Author: Drayke
Date: 2005-10-19 21:54
I am 15 and in 10th grade Symphonic Band (advanced band). My teacher reccommend that I get a new mouthpiece. I currently play on a plastic selmer clarinet with a B45 mouthpiece and Vandoren Optimum ligature, and I use size 3 vandoren reeds.
I told my lesson teacher about it and she reccommended what she uses, the M15. I told my band teacher, and he reccommended the 5RV LYRE instead. He said going from the B45 to the M15 may be too much of a change.
What do you think about this? Is there anyone who has played both and may be able to reccommend which one I should get?
My lesson teacher let me try her M15. It was the weirdest feeling in the world because it was SO much easier to blow into. Hands down I love it (i only played it 5 seconds though). I have not tried the 5RV Lyre yet.
Thanks a lot.
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Author: Tyler
Date: 2005-10-19 22:17
I have never tried the 5RV. I would say try the 5RV when you get a chance, and if you still like the M15 better, then I would go ahead and get IT. I play one right now, and it is a great mouthpiece. Very warm sound, and my only complaint is that the sound can get a little 'edgy' sometimes (probably my fault, though), especially using V12 reeds. You may need harder reeds to use with the M15, but don't play on too hard of reeds, or it is possible to make a habit of tensing up to compensate, therefore pinching off the sound.
-Tyler
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Author: Steve B.
Date: 2005-10-19 23:19
I would recommend the 5RV lyre for the time being. It has a medium facing in both opening and length and it balances very well with a number 3 reed.
(And it also should be less resistant than your B45)
The M15 on the other hand is more closed and has a longer facing curve. You really need to use at least a # 3.5 reed with it to get the most out of it.
It also has a darker sound which in my opinion is more suited to the orchestra in both projection and tone.
You might also consider the M30 which has many of the attributes of the M15 but will work better with a softer reed.
Not to confuse you but 2 other mouthpieces worthy of consideration are the Hite Premier and the Fobes Debut. Both are student mouthpieces, relatively low cost, and play extremely well.
Good luck,
Steve
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-10-20 00:33
Most band directors can't hold a candle to a teacher.
(I choose my words carefully)
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Author: Drayke
Date: 2005-10-20 00:55
Most band directors can't hold a candle to a teacher.
You mean teachers often know more than band directors? I still can't decide. I hope my local music store will allow me to try both out.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-10-20 01:21
The private teacher vs the band director. You have to find what works best for yourself, but take your private teacher's suggestions first.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2005-10-20 01:55
what david said.
go with your private teacher's recomendation.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-10-20 02:59
"You mean teachers often know more than band directors? I still can't decide. I hope my local music store will allow me to try both out."
It's like a medical specialist knowing more about a specific speciality than a general practitioner.
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Author: pzaur
Date: 2005-10-20 05:16
See if your teacher or band teacher will go with you when you try out some mouthpieces. Or, get some on "approval" form the local music store and take them to your lesson to try in the presence of your teacher and or band teacher.
You're the one playing it, but you also want opinions as to what a listener is hearing when you're playing it.
-pat
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Author: chito
Date: 2005-10-20 07:11
Hi i used 5rv lyre for almost 10 years but sometimes i treid also B45 and
others . For my own experienced 5rv lyre is very nice mpc for student and of course professional player .
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-10-20 07:29
Not sure that would help, but some of the top clarinetists in the world, including Michel Portal and Louis Sclavis play the Vandoren 5RV Lyre mouthpiece.
Now, of course that doesn't mean the 5RV is the best mouthpiece for you, but definitely worth a try (and if you can try several not just one).
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2005-10-20 14:14
M15 or 5RV Lyre?
Both mouhpieces are fine, you will not go terribly wrong with either of them.
Call the closest music shop in your area ask them if they have both in stock. They are very common mouthpieces so they should. Take a tuner, a patient and musical friend with you. Play test a few mouthpieces and ask your friend what he/she thinks. Go for the best compromise between how it sounds and how it feels. If you don't have a local music store you can order a several mouthpieces at the major internet companies and return the ones you don't like.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-10-20 14:21
I think that the big players who play those in France try literally hundreds to find their mouthpiece. It's like trying to find a good Gigliotti Mouthpiece these days....
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-10-20 14:28
Only you can decide. Try as many as you can.
Bob Draznik
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-10-20 14:40
Quote:
I think that the big players who play those in France try literally hundreds to find their mouthpiece. It's like trying to find a good Gigliotti Mouthpiece these days.... Ba-ZING.
But yes, try as many as you can, and bang for the buck, vandoren is in my opinion the best way to go. Of the few M15's I've tried, I've liked them all and thought they all played very well (tried four of them, last one was tried about a year and a half ago)
Haven't tried many other vandorens, but I was pleasantly surprised with the M15, and for 60 - 80 US dollars, a bargain.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-10-20 14:58
Seriously consider trying some of the hand finished mouthpieces
Fobes, Genusa (I'm trying some now that Ben sent me), etc.
I'd take those over a Vandoren any day, even a bad one.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2005-10-20 15:22
David,
Why the VD bashing? My experience with them has always been positive. They are cheap and pretty reliable. Many pros play them and I personally can't seem to find a hand finished mouthpiece that compares favorably to the vandorens I play or tried. I am not a player of your stature (of any stature actually) so there may be some thing I don't get. I woudl be interested in hearing an articulated criticism of the Vandoren mouthpieces.
BTW, how is your Backun-Morales?
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: ginny
Date: 2005-10-20 15:26
I assume that Windwinds and Brasswinds will still send out three mouthpieces for trial. I'd suggest that. I like my 5RV Lyre better than the B-45 I had, however I haven't tried an M15.
I assume that the reed strength required by each will make it difficult to compare at some level.
Some band directors are clarinetists... But if you're paying your teacher you should give that some extra weight.
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2005-10-20 16:41
I don't know of any professional orchestra players in the US who use a 5RV anymore! I know several who use M-15s (including myself, formerly).
Maybe someone out there can update or correct me if I'm wrong!
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2005-10-20 17:08
B40 is the way to go here, B45 no longer.
Just changed myself, took a few minutes to adapt, but what a much nicer sound.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-10-20 18:04
I grew up playing the B45, and 5rv lyre.
For a while I was suggesting to students to get the 11.1 Vandoren, but after that was discountinued I didn't find another Vandoren to replace it and started using the Hite D's for students.
I've tried the M series and find they are better than the other Vandoren, but nothing to write home about compared to the Fobes, Hite, Gigliotti, and the Genussa.
It's all a matter of personal taste.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-10-20 18:54
Dave B,
In your comparisons, are you comparing the "student lines" of those makers (Genussa, Fobes, Hite, Gigliotti) with the vandorens? Or the professional lines?
I haven't tried the student lines of handfinished mouthpieces, and agree that the professional models of the ones I've tried are much better than vandorens, but they're also twice the price.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Drayke
Date: 2005-10-20 20:33
As far as I know, the 5RV Lyre is plastic and the M15 is rubber. Any significant difference?
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2005-10-20 21:45
Are you sure about that? All the Vandoren mouthpieces I've seen seem to be the same material--rubber!
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Author: frank
Date: 2005-10-20 21:58
"I think that the big players who play those in France try literally hundreds to find their mouthpiece."
I think that is quite an inflated number David! lol After trying 5 different mouthpieces, they all start to sound the same. If a player needs to try 100 MACHINE MADE mouthpieces to find ONE that actually works, there may be somethiong wrong with the player. That is my opinion of course. David... don't be mad!  I've had worse luck overall with hand made mouthpieces. In my experience, it takes far longer to find a hand mae mouthpiece. Vandoren makes a good product. Of the 15 or so makers I have tried, I always wound up going back to my Vandoren. I play a discontinued model now (m14) and haven't changed in two years running. Before that, I played a Hawkins for a year and a half. The Hawkins was nice, but It died. Don't ask me how. I would be a little weary to tell Jon Manasse and Todd Levy that they sounded like ass because they play Vandoren - both of whom have amazing sounds. It's the player afterall, not the 100 mouthpieces. Cheers!
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Author: Steve B.
Date: 2005-10-20 22:13
The 5RV lyre is indeed hard rubber as is all of the other Vandoren mouthpieces except for the AT45 (which is some kind of low cost composite with the same facing as the B45)
I still think the 5RV lyre is a terrific mouthpiece especially for situations like a concert band where the clarinets are trying to balance out a large brass section. I've tried to use more closed facings with concert band and found that it was too tiring on my embouchure do to the harder reeds needed.
The 5RV lyre also seems to work well for chamber music and I believe is used by French Soloist Paul Meyer.
In any event there are so many variables that you really should try several examples of each model preferably with a tuner and someone else who's ears you trust. (like your teacher)
Steve
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-10-20 22:28
Alexi - the professional versions.
Frank, you might just want to ask them instead of assuming that I am wrong.
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Author: saturnsax
Date: 2005-10-21 00:23
the mouthpiece anyone chooses is a wonderfull but personal thing. one mouthpiece that is perfect for one person mabee totally wrong for the other. I would personally try the mouthpiece your private teacher has and give it a chance since she knows you better than your band director. Unless he/she is a clarinet player, the private teacher is usually a better choice.
I own just about every vandoren mouthpiece on the market for clarinet and saxophone when I taught lessons to jr high and h school students. Like many other woodwind players, I literally have a drawer full of mouthpieces. They stem from the cheap plastic, rubber, wood, metal mouthpieces, even a few crystal mouthpieces.
Ask your teacher if he/she has any extra "intermediate" mouthpieces you can have for cheap. One of the ways I had my students practice their lessons was to reward them with a better mouthpiece or lig when I felt they were ready for them or absolutely needed them.
Hope you find what you are looking for and remember
A better mouthpiece can help you sound better, but won't fix any problems you have. Just possibly mask them more.
PS. Don't be afraid of a brighter playing mouthpiece for clarinet. As long as you are not amplified with microphones, the higher harmonics of those mouthpieces will go away the further the sound travels. It's not how you sound in a small room that matters, it's how you sound 20 feet away. All a brighter mouthpiece will do is make your sound travel farther with less effort. I learned this from fellow pit players. ie. classical musicians.
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Author: MD1032
Date: 2005-10-21 01:55
The day I went to Sam Ash and tried a bunch of Vandorens the 5RV lyre was actually one of the first ones I crossed off for the reason that I was actually harder-blowing than the 5RV, but maybe I'll have to try it again. At any rate, I ended up with the B45, later aquired the M13 as a second mouthpiece, only to send it back because I still liked the B45 better for some reason. I would recommend this same process. Go to some local music store and PLAY a bunch of mouthpieces, one at a time, multiple times, until you find one you like. If not, WWBW seems to be accomodating.
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Author: RodRubber
Date: 2005-10-21 02:08
Can anyone tell me difference between the M14 and M13 (regular, not lyre) i have measured a bunch of M13s, and one unfortunately on 1 M14 that belonged to a student of mine. THe measurements are identical, and the only difference i can discern is that the M14 has thicker side and tip rails. I couple of my students have done pretty well with M15s, but they all measured a little different, some being as long as 38, others being closer to 35+. I do like the M15 though. I used it for a minute during a transition stage with some success.
Best -
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-10-21 02:14
MD1032 wrote:
> I would recommend this same process. Go to some local
> music store and PLAY a bunch of mouthpieces, one at a time,
> multiple times, until you find one you like. If not, WWBW seems
> to be accomodating.
Not a bad idea at all! ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Save up some dough, go clarinetfest 2006, and be OVERWHELMED at the choices of mouthpieces that will be there for you to try. And have the pick of the litter (a literal expression in this case) there.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: frank
Date: 2005-10-21 06:47
David....
Who is "they" anyway? Let's hear the list of names. I am curious because I highly doubt Carbonarre ever went through 100 mouthpieces to find ONE good one. He is a far better player than that. When I spoke with him before a concert a couple years ago, he mentioned that the B40 mouthpiece he was playing on was new, and he just grabbed it off the table. He sonded glorious that night. I still stand by my opinion that if ANY PROFESSIONAL PLAYER needs to go through 100 PROFESSIONAL MODEL mouthpieces -whether it be Vandoren or Fobes, Gigliotti, etc. - to find ONE GOOD ONE, then chances are said player probably has playing issues. "They" may be an amateur and not know it! David, your opinion is just an opinion, not dogmatic rule. But... your opinions on this topic greatly differ from mine. Nothing personal!
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2005-10-21 15:52
Maybe not a few 100 but definately some.
I recently changed and believe me out of the 7 I tested only 2 were ok (for me), they all were VD B40.
Some didn't sound right, one was even completely out of tune (again : for me, and my way of playing, and I'm not a pro)
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Author: RodRubber
Date: 2005-10-21 18:31
Frank,
You seem to have very strong feelings about vandoren's quality control.
Best -
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-10-21 21:54
Not to mention, there's always the chance that a professional picked a mouthpiece that they liked (out of a few) by a certain company, and could even have a mouthpiece refacer touch it up or modify it in such a way that it's not even as though it was off the assembly line. I don't know if there's any legal reason why they can't do this and not be able to say they play a ____ mouthpiece (without disclosing any refacing or other work)
For instance, Gigliotti based the selmer 10G design on two moenig modified buffets. However people knew him for playing "selmers". I don't see why this can't be done with mouthpieces (perhaps it already is by some people)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Steve B.
Date: 2005-10-21 23:04
This is an interesting topic and Alexi makes a good point. Is a Kaspar still a Kaspar if it had been refaced by another maker.
In the case of Vandoren I find it curious that some facings seem to have better quality control than others. For instance every B45 I have tried has played quite differently whereas the M15's seem to be much more similiar.
Now I doubt that this is something that happens on purpose. Both facings are applied by machine and the baffels are hand finished.
Could it be that when you make a medium open facing like the B45 or B40 that the tolerances are just that much more critical because the reed has a longer vibration travel.
Perhaps some of the facing masters could chime in here.
Steve
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Author: Drayke
Date: 2005-10-21 23:47
Ok so I went to my local music store. They only have the 5RV and were ordering the 5RV Lyres soon anyway, and they never heard of the M15. They have heard of the M13 and M14 though. Maybe because the M15 is new.
So I may decide to buy both off the internet, see which I like, and send the other back. My dad doesn't like the idea too much, though, because we probably have to pay shipping and stuff for it.
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Author: Steve B.
Date: 2005-10-22 00:38
When you do a mouthpiece trial from a mailorder company like
WWBW or similar, you will normally have to pay the return postage plus a small sterilization fee for the the mouthpieces you don't keep. Perhaps if you call their customer service department you can negotiate the return postage. Make sure you don't scratch the mouthpieces by using a fabric type ligature, and use some tape on the beak so you don't leave teeth marks, otherwise they might not be returnable.
Another thing to think about is that both the 5RV lyre and M15 are available in 3 variations.
1. Traditional (Normal Beak profile, A442 tuning)
2. Profile 88 (longer and slightly thinner beak, A442 tuning)
3. Profile 88 '13' series (A440 Tuning)
Unless your clarinet currently tunes sharp (which is common with many student level clarinets) I would stay away from the "13" series which might tune a little flat for you.
Good luck,
Steve
Post Edited (2005-10-22 01:41)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-10-22 06:53
Quote:
In the case of Vandoren I find it curious that some facings seem to have better quality control than others. For instance every B45 I have tried has played quite differently whereas the M15's seem to be much more similiar. One option I didn't see mentioned is that perhaps the inconsistency in such products correlates to how many of those products are made. For instance, perhaps vandoren V12 inconsistency (especially in the 'more common' sizes of 3 - 4) is a direct correlation to the amount of boxes being sold, and therefore the wear and tear on whatever machines have to produce so many of these reeds.
I don't know the figures, but maybe the B45 is a much more popular mouthpiece than the M15 (or at least has more mouthpieces currently out there on the market) and so maybe the machines have worn to a point of greater inconsistency than the M15s (which might have lower production numbers per year).
US Army Japan Band
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Author: frank
Date: 2005-10-22 07:37
I actually do think Vandoren has great quality control. I find most models play very close to one another in terms of sound and pitch. Some are dogs like anything else, but for the most part they are consistent. I am a firm believer in using whatever works for you best. In my case, the Vandoren mouthpiece seems to work well and I get good results. I pretty much sound the same on whatever I play, but the Vandoren M14 I use seems comfortable and easy. That's the ONLY reason why I use it. The main factor in making a nice sound is actually having a sound concept in your head. The equipment only makes that result easier or harder to achieve. Pitch is the same way. YOU make the tuning, not the mouthpiece. So, the ideal is to choose a mouthpiece that isn't horribly out of tune. It's that simple.
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