 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: mkybrain
Date: 2005-09-13 03:03
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, this has to be another prank. LOL, look at the price.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-09-13 03:13
mkybrain wrote:
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, this has to be another prank. LOL, look at the
> price.
They are NOT a prank. They are distributed by D'Addario Canada ...GBK
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Author: redwine
Date: 2005-09-13 03:20
Hello,
I tested them in Maryland and, to my amazement, they actually made response on the e-flat clarinet easier. I think it had something to do with being able to hear yourself at a very soft dynamic. Essentially, you are hearing at least part of your sound as it bounces back at you right away. I could not justify the extra pound or so of metal on the end of the clarinet, the way it looks, nor the void it would leave in my wallet.
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2005-09-13 04:04
The photo shows a bass clarinet wearing one, yet it's not in the product catalogue.
It's not to say that I will buy one, it is really really ugly in my humble opinion.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-09-13 04:17
Anyone else notice some similarity to the very successful Power Barrel™ by Doctor's Products? ...GBK
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2005-09-13 04:39
They both have holes in them.
The actual clarinet does too, minus any add-ons... hehe.
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Author: susieray
Date: 2005-09-13 05:30
Okay. At the risk of having everyone laugh at me, I have a confession to make. I purchased a set of Valgon Rings at ClarinetFest 2004.
But they really do work. I have yet to use them in public, since they look funny. I am in a trio (which plays mostly 30's swing tunes) and I am competing with an alto sax which is a LOT louder than my clarinet. So I thought, since I was getting complaints that no one could hear the clarinet, maybe this would help.
But then they set me up with a mic, so I have never really needed to try out the Valgon rings with that group.
Sue
Post Edited (2005-09-13 14:08)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-09-13 10:49
susieray wrote:
> Okay. At the risk of having everyone laugh at me, I have a
> confession to make. I purchased a set of Valgon Rings at
> ClarinetFest 2004.
That's where I lstened to the results. They do make a difference in volume to the listener.
But they're pug-ugly.
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-09-13 11:00
They look like those collars you put on dogs and cats to keep them from scratching themselves.
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2005-09-13 11:28
OK, but a P.O. box in Toronto? At least a street address would make it more credible, i.e. you can go down there and try them out if they'd have you.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-09-13 11:58
They lack one necessary addition....make that two
When you stop playing, do they spin around?
Where's the neon?
GBK, please add a nice pic of a pimped-out Escalade here.........
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-09-13 12:27
Alseg wrote:
> GBK, please add a nice pic of a pimped-out Escalade
> here.........
Like this?
![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) ...GBK
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2005-09-13 12:40
(Disclaimer - I am the inventor and maker of the Power Barrel)
Actually, I have evaluated the Valgon product extensively with spectral analysis equipment and they work on the same physics principal as the Power Barrel by emphasizing the even harmonic series of notes. It uses a resonator and passive filter system, the Power Barrel a slightly different principal of amplification and filter.
The human brain - through design or evolution is more efficient at processing frequencies in the even harmonic series. Alarm calls of many animals and birds consist of high pitched even harmonic frequencies and are probably a "fight or flight" advantage mechanism.
At the same amplitude, frequencies in the even harmonic series are perceived as louder and projecting greater distance than the odd harmonic series. The Power Barrel is based on the Helmholtz resonator cavity principal with the number and size of holes designed to emphasize and "amplify" the even harmonic spectrum of frequencies associated with the frequency range of the clarinet - a more "active" system than the Valgon product which is a passive filter. The metal sleeve is a resonator platform. Valgon is more effective with the clarinet than the saxophone and flute because of the basic physics of producing the sound by these instruments and the greater abundance of odd harmonic frequencies produced by the clarinet.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and in truth the quality of the sound is the ultimate goal. Both products - Valgon and Power Barrel - are perceived, with the clarinet, as "brighter" than without the hardware (a shift in the abundance of measured even harmonic frequencies) but are useful in certain applications - e.g. marching band, outdoor use, mixed woodwind and brass ensembles, jazz, etc.. Tone of course has many components and hardware modification merely presents a different pallet for the artist to use and control.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-09-13 13:11
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"
Yup, and the worse eyes, the increase of the beauty........
That Valgon thing is fugly. On the bell it looks like an ashtray is attached to it.
For the "fiery player"
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-09-13 13:55
<<That Valgon thing is fugly.>>
Yeah, but when you come right down to it, isn't the act of playing any wind instrument a little bit absurd looking, anyway?
I mean, here we go, repeatedly putting some oddly-shaped object into our mouths, and blowing and sweating and drooling and dripping over it, in the hopes of yielding an artistic outcome. Not pretty.
There are a lot of reasons to love playing a musical instrument. Looking cool while doing it is probably not one of them.
(And I suppose one could say the same for any number of other human activities.)
Susan
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Author: susieray
Date: 2005-09-13 14:33
<How about just turning up the mic?>
There are situations when a mic isn't available or isn't convenient for one reason or another....marching band would be one example.
Sue
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-09-13 15:13
It would be a shame to pay all that money for the ring, then slap it over that $500 Backun bell and cover up ITS beauty.
May I point out some physics:
1. The total acoustic energy produced by your clarinet, without the use of electronic amplification, cannot be increased by any passive device, only changed in spectral distribution (acoustic power vs. frequency).
2. Any acoustic energy reflected back to the player is energy NOT radiated towards the audience.
3. Any frequencies emphasized (increased in power) by some kind of harmonic filter (e.g. Doc's Power Barrel or these rings) will result in decreased power output at other frequencies and an overall alteration of the tone quality (spectral shape) produced.
Ben, please correct me if I'm wrong or if I used too many big words again.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-09-13 16:03
OK you physicists:
Perhaps we can convert the lost kinetic energy into sound.
The instrument heats up....convert the thermal energy into acoustic energy.
Or use solar power.
Harness the wind flow via a turbine.
Or fahgeddaboutit and take up bass trombone.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-13 16:40
And there I was thinking people using those clear perspex sound mirrors (with the fragile clip thingy) looked ridiculous, let's see if they bung one or two of these on as well!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-09-13 17:34
Now, more than ever, we Americans need that 99 miles-per-gallon carburetor they used to advertise in magazines, along with the magnetic fuel line gadgets that were 'guaranteed' to improve gas mileage.
You youngsters out there, if you don't know what a 'carburetor' is, ask your Grandpa.
I remember one really funny ad from a magazine, it was a relatively expensive television antenna that promised to "pull RF energy directly out of the air!" (which, if I understand correctly, is what all antennas do anyway). If you looked hard at the photo you could tell it was a standard 'rabbit-ear' antenna repackaged into a futuristic-looking plastic housing.
The point is, let us not fall for every gimmicky new invention that comes out --- stick to the basics --- a good mouthpiece, good reeds, a decent clarinet, and as much practicing and performing as you can fit into your schedule.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-09-13 17:43
(Disclaimer - I am the inventor and maker of the Power Barrel)
David is right in that only a finite amount of acoustic energy is produced by the clarinet. The "perceived" increase in sound volume and better projection is the aforementioned increased efficiency or acuity of the human brain to process even harmonic frequencies (some say 20-30%). The tonal characteristics of clairnet sound is a complex mixture of even and odd harmonic series and subsets of these frequencies. The filter - or better the accentuator - can be configured and fine tuned to accentuate certain even harmonic frequencies - agreeably at the expense of other sound energy, but also to accentuate subsets of frequency patterns characteristic of the odd harmonic frequencies associated with the more "mellow" sounds and better processed subsets of odd harmonic frequencies. Some low odd harmonic frequencies have very small recognition rates and therefore not efficient use of acoustic energy for the recipient ear.
A lot of this information was gleaned from the audiology literature which has studied and documented hearing response to both pure and blended frequency patterns. This data has been used to construct the third generation hearing aids which accentuate certain well processed frequency patterns as well as the customized boost in frequencies found deficient in the patient by sensitive hearing testing.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-09-13 18:08
BTW David - I think that your basic premise of decent equipment, practice, and performance is the best recipe for success. I however have no need of a hybrid vehicle with my ionic plasma megnetic gas line modulator that gives me 60 mpg fuel efficiency, 30% increase in torque, and 25% increase in perceived horsepower with a dark mellow exhaust tone.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: Kel
Date: 2005-09-13 19:04
Mark Charette said: "But they're pug-ugly."
Markael said: "Beauty's only skin deep."
Just to set the record straight, pugs are absolutely beautiful, on the outside and the inside.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-09-13 19:35
All good points, Doc -- the 'psycho-acoustics' (perception) part is certainly important --- because the way our brains process sounds is what:
1) Allows us to comprehend quiet conversations on the far side of a noisy room;
2) Allows us to listen to "compressed" music (e.g. MP3) having far less actual information content than the original music, with little loss of enjoyment;
3) Causes us to think we are hearing deep bass from small speaker systems which are physically incapable of reproducing the fundamental frequencies, as long as the second harmonic (the octave above the missing fundamental) and higher harmonics are present in the correct proportions (called "doubling", explained very well in Arthur Benade's book);
4) Makes us certain that wood clarinets sound better than everything else (DOH! who said that?)
![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
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Author: redwine
Date: 2005-09-13 19:37
Hello Dave,
I couldn't begin to tell you if you are correct, but those definitely were some big words.
Here's my favorite big word: antidisestablishmentarianism.
If you don't try the new stuff, you won't know if it's good. It's a good thing someone tried the new crazy invention of Denner way back when! By the way, all music was new once!
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-09-13 19:46
You're right, Ben -- and don't forget Denner's clarinet was derived from the 'chalumeau', which is a pretty big word unless you speak French.....
BTW, not all music was considered 'new' even when it was new --- read some of the critics of 'retro-Romantics' such as Rachmaninoff when their new symphonies were premiered!
Yes, people should try new things with an open mind -- but also with a healthy dose of skepticism to protect their wallets and their sel-esteems. I hate seeing people suckered by marketing b.s. (not to mention other notions not to be discussed on this forum, such as religion and politics).
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-09-13 22:12
Call me a skeptic, but my first thought was that if you use these things your sound will be percieved as being better because the other musicians, who can't play well while laughing, will sound worse.
(And any website with obvious misspellings increases my skepticism for some reason. I guess I expect a scientific mind to be meticulous about the details.)
But, I'll keep an open mind and consider that they may work as resonators. When I saw them attached to the bell I assumed they were supposed to do something with the sound (i.e., air waves) emanating from the instrument, but since most of the sound emanates from the toneholes, I knew this was a lot of hooey.
And their explanation about reducing turbulence in the air stream has to be hooey and hokum as well. The only air flow of concern in music production is that going past the reed (or buzzing lips) and it's not going to be controlled by some contraption on the outside of the instrument (unless you consider the musician to be a contraption). I can potentially accept the resonator explanation given in this thread, but the fact that the website doesn't use that as their explanation of how they work adds to my incredulity.
Now I must ask the Doctor a few questions.
First, you say that "frequencies in the even harmonic series are perceived as louder and projecting greater distance than the odd harmonic series." I assume you intended to say that an even harmonic series is perceived to be louder, etc. than an odd harmonic series. As stated, it initially sounded to me as if you were saying that any of the frequencies in a even harmonic series is percieved as being louder, which makes no sense since any frequency can be part of an even harmonic series (or an odd one). I would also be interested a reference to the study that determined this.
I would also suspect that alarm calls of animals or birds (which are technically animals) consist of even harmonic series (if they do) as a result of the inherent physics of their vocal system, not because such a series is more easily heard. (Cylindrical body passages are just more practical than conical ones.) Your statement on this subject appears to have cause and effect reversed.
Also, if your power barrel, as stated, amplifies the even harmonics and the clarinet sound consists largely of odd harmonics, how can this device be of help? One would, I would think, want to amplify the characteristic frequencies of the instrument. Adding more of the even harmonics to the existing odd harmonics, would, I presume, serve to make the clarinet sound more like an english horn or saxophone, something I'm not looking to do.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-09-14 00:47
Don - you are correct in your interpretation that I gave a poor explanation. I have only addressed the parts of the Valgon system that I believe are relevant and will not go into trashing the other claims.
Every note on the scale has a characteristic pure frequency e.g. A=440 Hz (in our tuning system). Very few "pure" notes sound nice but most musical instruments, depending on the physics of their sound production capabilities, produce a primary frequency and then a harmonic series of frequencies which are divisions of the frequency of the primary note - either even (e.g. 1/4, 1/2, 1/8 etc.) or odd (e.g. 1/5, 1/3 etc.) which are subsets of the frequency of that note. As mentioned the human brain processes the even divisions or particular subsets of the even divisions more efficiently than the odd divisions or its subsets of the primary frequency.
I have done a fair amount of spectral analysis of the frequency patterns of notes played on the clarinet. The physics of the closed tube clarinet are such that it produces the primary frequency of the given note (otherwise we would not be able to play music on a note scale), a series of even harmonic divisions, plus a series of odd harmonic frequencies of the given note. As opposed to the brass the clarinet has a greater preponderance of odd harmonic series frequencies making up the total sound energy of any given note played. This characteristic signature of more odd harmonic subsets of frequencies gives the clarinet its tone.
For a given sound energy level the human brain perceives "loudness" and detectability based primarily on the energy of the primary frequency and the even harmonic frequencies, but adds up the other frequency patterns to give the sound a "color or texture" if you will. I have segregated frequency patterns of clarinet notes and with the help of some talented mathematicians developed algorithms characterizing subsets of frequencies perceived as "bright" and "dark" by panels of observers. It is overly simplistic to characterize patterns as either even harmonic or odd harmonic because it is much more complex and beyond the scope of this forum to describe (not that some would not understand it but it is very boring technical research).
The basis of the Power Barrel is the Helmholtz resonator which is a closed cavity, in this case a precise "V" cut into the outside of the barrel surrounded by a metal resonator sleeve, with an opening/s. The size of the opening determines the frequency of the sound emitted from the Helmholtz resonator. If you have multiple holes the math gets much more complex. The Helmholtz resonator theory was of course discovered by Helmholtz that originally noted urns at the back of Greek amphitheaters and was trying to explain the great acoustics of the amphitheater setting. He discovered, and later theorized, that the urns with precise openings would amplify the range of the human voice to patrons at the rear in the cheap seats. He developed the theory and tested it with a number of round metal balls with holes drilled in them of various sizes and the measured the sound emitted from each with an equal excitation energy applied to each ball. There are a series of higher math formulas to predict frequency emitted by a Helmholtz resonator. My own calculations have been aided by massive (now public sector) research done by the Government to develop sound absorbing materials for noisy areas like machinery rooms and subways. The panels with various sized holes and sound absorbent materials backing them have been precisely calculated to absorb sound energy of particular frequencies associated with the area. The Power Barrel is reverse engineering of these mathematical formulas. As indicated, the Power Barrel is designed to increase perceived sound volume and aid in detectability (projection). Even harmonics of the primary note are emphasized but also a proprietary frequency amplification series of frequencies which is easily processed by the brain (the audiology research papers) but does not convey the "bright" sound associated with brass instruments - I can not explain this further without giving away some proprietary elements.
Now to animals - most animals and birds have the ability to make many sounds. The primal growl of the tiger contains a lot of sound energy but also a lot of odd harmonic frequencies giving it "depth", but is primarily a close range vocal tool. Bird sounds are often perceived as "sweet" because of the composition of even and odd harmonic frequencies. These same animals have very focused alarm calls that are a pretty much pure high frequency notes and associated even harmonic series frequencies without much in the way of odd harmonic frequencies and are designed to project and be detected over longer distances and sounds uncharacteristic of other vocalizations of that animal.
I have gone on in too much detail here and probably not enough detail for the technical crowd but I hope that I have clarified some issues.
L. Omar Henderson
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