 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-09-09 13:53
I have a clarinet with the second from top trill key that is leaking. It's a cork pad and like most clarinets the key closure is coming in from the side rather than just an up and down motiion. There is a little play in the key so I will swedge it to stop that. I can't determine where the leak is with a feeler gauge and my leak light is too large to go inside the clarinet. I know there isn't great suctiion on the top joint and I think it's this key. How should I proceed ...other than going to a repair person. I want to do it myself. Reheat the key/pad? John
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-09 14:15
Check there aren't any chips on the tonehole under that pad (or all the toneholes on that joint), as air can leak through them and feeler gauges won't detect these chips, only looking at the tonehole in a strong light will show up any imperfections.
Or check all the cork pads to see if there's a pore or hole in any of them where they seat, again, a feeler gauge won't detect this imperfection.
Be careful when swedging the outer barrel on the trills so that you don't damage the inner barrel as the metal is quite soft and can end up oval, and the trills can bind, and leave the screw in the barrel when you swedge.
If you are heating up the pad cup to move the pad, be careful you don't scorch the pad.
The lower trill mounted in this way is prone to being loose as it might not have been fitted well after plating (possibly overbroached), and as both barrels are of soft metal they can wear more than a barrel running on a steel screw.
That's why Leblanc and Howarth clarinets have separate post mountings for the trills as they can be fitted independently, and work more reliably.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-09-09 14:44)
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2005-09-09 22:02
Amen on LeBlanc trill key configuration. The lower joint Eb and C keys being on seperate post also help with swedging.....a lot more dependable than the single rod, three post method. Almost every Buffet has excess play laterally with the key/rod in lower joint the Eb key.
jbutler
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-09-09 22:43
"I think it's this key"
Unless there's other info you're not telling us....I'd go through the "blow" test by blocking the bottom bore opening and testing each pad/hole. And don't forget the Akey adjustment screw setting. Frequently I find it's the bottom side trill key.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-10 08:45
I think Leblanc have copped out since they started using the offset trills, if you compare an older LL or similar with a Concerto II you'll see the LL is of more sound construction, in more ways than the one mentioned.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-09-11 02:26
A cork pad leaking? Gee, what a surprise. One of the reasons I only use leather pads if the choice is mine.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-09-11 03:39
EVERYTHING must be close to perfect for a cork pad to behave reliably.
It is not just minute chips across a tone hole that can cause leaks, but also grain that has not been filled.
Get a strong magnifying glass to see just how imperfect the average tone hole edge is.
Pads deal with these slight imperfections when their composition is based on materials that bed in slightly.
If you have trouble getting a seal with a cork pad, be thankful you are not working with Norbeck pads - silicon rubber that does not bed in at all.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-09-11 03:50
Thanks for the suggestions. I did the swedging with a repair guy overseeing my efforts. I used a swedging tool....it wasn't the plier type. I swedged with the steel inside the tube until the key started to bind slightly. The repairman then used a cutting tool on a lathe to take off any burrs on the end....one or two spins manually of the cutter. I then assembled the clarinet and the key fit was great.
The leak is another story. I've got more work to do.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-11 09:04
I wouldn't mind one (or even a set) of those collet-type swedging tools. They're more uniform in applying pressure to the key barrel, but obviously swedging does stretch the barrel and you did fraise back the ends, not only to shorten them but to leave a nice bearing surface against the pillars.
I've probably mentioned it somewhere before, but do allow some end play in the top joint cross keys (speaker, throat A, side/trill keys where they're mounted on pillars going across the body), as these are more likely to bind when the wood moves than the longer keys mounted along the joints.
Check all your cork pads and toneholes for imperfections - even the most expensive mass-produced clarinets will have them.
FAO Gordon, are these Norbeck pads the ones with the cork base and about a mm of silicone facing, as used on Ludwig Frank oboes/cors?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-09-11 10:14
Probably. The silicone is a light blue-grey colour, with composite cork laminated to the back.
Pretty well indestructible, and impervious to water. They have a tendency to have a slightly sticky feel, which would not bode well for the really light springing on some keys of a conservatory oboe. I've found them to have long-term reliability on clarinet if they are well installed, but I seldom use them.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-11 10:41
I tried a Ludwig Frank cor anglais finished with these pads, they felt positive, completely air tight and silent, but they did feel squishy under the fingers compared to cork pads, and also thought a strange choice of pads to use in a pro-level instrument - I doubt they'll work well on plastic bodied instruments, the risk of them sticking is too great (as Valentino pads have previously demonstrated).
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-09-11 13:20
Norbeck pads are godawful, IMHO. Gordon's assessment is spot-on, but biased towards the kind/tolerant side, methinks..........
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-11 16:14
Well, there's always been 'answers' to the natural substance, but the natural substance in the long run always does a much better job than these 'answers'.
If it ain't broke...
Although thin gasket cork (rubberised cork) does an excellent job between the LH F/C - RH F/C link and thumb ring to finger 1 ring overlever connection, and under adjusting screws.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-09-11 21:23
"Well, there's always been 'answers' to the natural substance, but the natural substance in the long run always does a much better job than these 'answers'."
I disagree:
Music Center (Wold's biggest pad maker? - in Italy, supplier to Kraus and many, many instrument manufactures) has made a clarinet pad which is the same as a conventional leather pad except that the leather is a synthetic. I use this synthetic leather a lot for linkages on precision oboes and for F/C lever-to-key links on clarinets, and for silencing under small adjusting screws, eg flutes, and have become very familiar with its properties.
IMO this is vastly superior to leather in every way as a pad covering. As thin and supple as leather, COMPLETELY air-proof, totally waterproof, almost indestructible, many times tougher than leather. It looks like leather and has a back which also looks like leather. They called it "microfiber", and it came in white or tan (but there are many other fabrics "called microfibre".)
Considering the cost of top quality pad leather, I very much doubt that this material costs more to produce. It was possibly taken from the upper-end upholstery trade. However the pads were priced at least twice as much as alternatives.
IMO the reason they did not catch on was price, but I believe they are available still if ordered.
"Although thin gasket cork (rubberised cork) does an excellent job between the LH F/C - RH F/C link and thumb ring to finger 1 ring overlever connection, and under adjusting screws."
IMO this microfiber is far superior. It cannot be punctured by the centre of the regulating screws.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-11 21:47
By 'answers' I was referring to certain types of man-made pads and cork substitutes used by some companies that are part of the COUGHmusicgroupAHEM!!! In particular those COUGHvalentinopadsHOO-HAH!
The dark green fake suede Fox use on their bassoons is pretty good stuff (it's nice and slippery too where you need it to be), I think that's probably a type of microfibre (it's also 1mm thick - that's alright, but I could do with some 2mm thick for saxes) - I'll burn a tiny bit to see what it does.
I used some of this fake suede on the 1010 I just overhauled - on keys that are open standing against the body to minimise noise, and the bridge key.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-09-11 21:52)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-09-11 22:57
There are quite a few alternatives now to the horrible quality felt that has been traditionally used. The top quality felts are now superb, and come in all thicknesses. You just need to shop around more. Some of the best materials - synthetic felt, black synthetic cork, etc are stocked by Kraus, who unfortunately do not sell to the public.
Yes, the "Ultrasuede" that Fox uses is nice, but when I have nice alternatives for any given situation, I finish up seldom using the ultrasuede.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-12 12:00
How much give and recovery has the monofiber fake leather got under adjusting screws?
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2005-09-12 12:25
For us non-repair people looking to learn some terminology, what is 'Swedging'? I presume it has nothing to do with Elmer Fudd going downhill in the snow. :-)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-12 13:28
HAHAHA!
Swedging (or 'swaging' as I normally spell it, it's exactly the same process and it's almost the same pronunciation eg. sway'-gin - that's with a silent G on the end with my accent, or a hard G to finish if you're from Liverpool - from the verb 'swedge' or 'swage' ) is basically stretching the key barrel (tubing) to take out or reduce end play between pillars, or to tighten the barrel on the steel (screw) to take out unwanted wobble.
The tools are either a pair of pliers with highly polished jaws that have smooth semicircular opposing cut outs in either jaw to take the diameter of tubing, or a series of polished shrinking collets in a T-shaped tool, the T part adjusts the collet.
And no wabbits are involved at any stage.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-09-12 13:39)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-09-12 13:46
Chris wrote "How much give and recovery has the monofiber fake leather got under adjusting screws?"
I find adjustments very stable. After installation of the "microfiber" silencer, I give the linkage (if it is under a regulating screw) a gentle squeeze together, with pliers, to 'bed in' the microfibre. I find it is then very stable indeed.
The thickness is about 0.25 mm. For under the regulator screws of oboes and flutes, where adjustments are so critical, I sometimes use a burr in my dental handpiece to thin the back down so thickness reduces to closer to 0.2 mm.
I bought small sheets of this from Music Center. I am surprised that to my knowledge no technicians' suppliers stock it yet. Very useful stuff!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-12 16:15
Cheers Gordon, I'll definitely be looking into this, and also other types of felt substitutes they do.
The 'rubco' I use is between 0.3-0.4mm thick which is really too thick for use under adjusters, but it is high density and hard wearing - but a good alternative should be worth it.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-09-12 22:55
As a "composite" or "agglomerated" cork, "Rubco" is excellent.
I used to buy it in all sizes from 0.3 mm to 2.0 mm, from Servette 92 Music, in Geneva, a few decades ago. You are the first other person I have come acrtoss who has heard of it.
It is very similar to the Yamaha's "Hycotex" and the composite cork sold in USA by Musicmedic (direct to the public), Kraus, and others.
The Microfiber material is certainly a lot better than this for linkage under regulating screws. I can eaisly pierce the composite cork with my teeth, butit is close to impossible for the Microfibre mentioned.
BTW, the tan stuff seems thinner than the white. I seldom use the white.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-13 16:55
I've got some 'Gummi-Kork' which is much higher quality than 'Rubco', but in 1mm and 2mm thick sheets - but it's ideal for replacing the 'Hycotex' under Yamaha/Yanagisawa sax palm keys, Ab/Eb keys on clarinets as the stopper won't chew through it and several other places EXCEPT on open standing keys as it's too noisy.
I remember Corton (Amati) used to use it on their sax crook corks too, not advisable, but on bassoon gaskets it works pretty well.
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