 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2005-09-07 12:10
Another pretty simple question... On my A clarinet, the open G is a tiny bit thin sounding when not covered, and when I DO put fingers down such as ooo|xxo which is what I'm used to, it becomes very unfocused and fuzzy sounding. I don't know other covered fingerings for open G, but the other stuff I have tried hasn't worked without making it too flat. The only thing that kind of works but its practical is oox|xxo so could there be a problem with the G tone hole or the pad? The pad seems to be sitting quite high already...Thanks!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-07 12:23
Have you got a skin or cork pad in the G key?
I usually cork pad this key as cork pads stay nice and flat, and give it plenty of venting (as much as it will allow without the throat A key clattering with it) - around 3mm max, but no less than 2.5mm.
I also put more fingers down for the throat notes on my Selmers to resonate and flatten them - oo(x)|xxx and F/C or E/B.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-09-07 13:46
Also rotate the barrel on its axis to find a better "sweet spot"....sometimes this helps defuzz throat tones. Try someone else's barrel also, see if it helps.
Make sure the screw adjuster on the Ab key is not lifting the Ab key.
Make sure no gunk has built up from cork grease in the barrel sockets. This can make the seal leak....A colleague gave me his son's clar. to look at...So much stuff was in the sockets it created channels, and it was overly oiled by the dad (with good intentions) with junk built up in the tone holes. They had killed it with kindness.... cleaning the stuff out helped a lot.
I am not a repair person, but then insert the usual barrel merchant disclaimer.Or send it to your fav tech or Dave or Walt or .....etc.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-09-07 14:42
On many soprano clarinets (Bb as well as A) the small vent pad underneath the throat A key (the one connected to the thumb ring) is insufficiently vented -- that is, it doesn't open high enough, creating a stuffy and/or flat open G. Sometimes it can be easily fixed by thinning the cork under the thumb ring foot which allows the whole mess to open a bit more.
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Author: donald
Date: 2005-09-07 19:20
hmmmm very good suggestions but ANs problem is that the note only becomes fuzzy when played with resonance fingerings- and when played without is "a bit thin".... sounds like a job for Morrie B (who would undoubtely insert a metal object into your clarinet, twist it slightly, a bit of black wood dust falls out, and problem solved) (seriously, he does a lot more than that- but the end result is that your clarinet will play better). But Canada is a long way away, eh?
AN- it's also possible that your pad is too HIGH rather than too LOW (this can on certain notes/certain clarinets make the note very bright- which might be what you are interpreting as "thin").
is the Clarinet, by some chance, a FESTIVAL?
donald
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-09-07 19:29
donald, I often set the little vent pad quite high and the only negative impact I've experienced has been an excessively sharp PITCH on the open G --- I haven't personally experienced excessively bright tone quality, but it could be a byproduct of the note then having very little resistance (with the attendant tendency of the player to overblow it relative to the notes around it).
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2005-09-08 00:07
Donald - the note is a little sharp (compared with those around it) and yes it is a Festival.... hmmmm?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-09-08 02:29
It's probably cause it's a buffet.
Alexi
(Uh oh!!! ![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif) He went there!)
US Army Japan Band
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Author: clarisax
Date: 2005-09-08 05:15
I'm thinking about getting a Festival A clarinet. Is this something that only effects the Festival model?? Is it something serious enough to make me purchase a different brand/model? If so I may have to convince the parents to get me a Prestige. I like the Eb key.
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Author: donald
Date: 2005-09-08 06:56
David S- you've certainly more experience than me on actually changing pad heights and setting up clarinets.... however the concept that pad height (on for instance G/D, C/G and E/B) will affect the voicing and pitch relationships is not my invention, but most people notice it most when the pad is too low (causing stuffy notes). The "pad too high" side of the affair is a lot more moot- but i can say that i've certainly seen the situation where tone was improved by lowering the pad.... (admitedly not on this particular note- throat G....). Leon Russianof discusses the height of the fingers over holes changing the sound in volume two of his method- and suggests that having the fingers too high can be detrimental timbrally.
other things to consider- one persons "sweet" will be another persons "bright" (both taste and setup come into consideration).
The "brightness" is in relation to whatever notes you are comparing it to. On both my main clarinets open G seems brighter than the F below it, but not brighter than the D a 4th below. Some reeds will accentuate these differences, others may mask them.
Aussie Nick- i experience exactly this problem on my Festival A, in June i played it to M Backun who visibly winced when he heard how obvious the mismatched voicing was. The player next to me said "a Festival?, it figures" (not exact quote- something along those lines). I'm sure that not every Festival A has this problem, but it would seem at least two of them do....
at any rate- if you lower the pad it may be that the need for resonance fingerings to improve tuning will be eliminated, and possible that the tone will be improved (but given advice from DS, i'd say this is less likely). You can experiment with different pad heights by sticking adhesive labels (cut into smaller bits) under the "thumb ring cork bit".... add layer by layer, comparing to other notes for tone and intonation as you go.
good luck
donald
donald
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2005-09-08 07:10
I stuck some paper (a couple of layers thick) in this little groove which affects the thumb hole and the pad height for open G....and yes it made the note less bright/thin... The only problem now is the horrible sound when using covered fingerings.
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Author: donald
Date: 2005-09-08 11:38
many players don't use resonance fingerings for open G
others do
what does your teacher think?
donald
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Author: Iplayclarinet
Date: 2005-09-09 14:01
ive been told that the logo on the barrell of buffet clarinets is printed on the "sweet spot" so if you have the logo pointing outwards it should help with your open notes
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-09 16:30
My tone is much better when the flow of reiki into my fourth chakra isn't impeded by planetary misalignment, resulting in negative chi energy due to poor feng shui, but that's nothing an infusion of St. John's wort and chamomile won't put right, thus restoring the balance of yin and yang.
Or just more practice.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-09-09 17:18
Iplayclarinet wrote:
> ive been told that the logo on the barrell of buffet clarinets
> is printed on the "sweet spot" so if you have the logo
> pointing outwards it should help with your open notes
Think about what you wrote.
Buffet literally makes hundreds, if not thousands of barrels a week.
Do you think they are all tested for their "sweet spot" and then stamped with the logo?
How would they be tested? On which particular clarinet?
If you didn't know, the barrels (and bells) are literally pulled from a bin and then added to a completed upper and lower joint, before final inspection and packing.
Everything has already been stamped with the Buffet logo.
I don't know which is worse: the myth that the barrels are all pre-tested for a "sweet spot", or you actually believing it...GBK
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-09 17:32
Add to that the myth the top and bottom joints are from the same log!
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Author: redwine
Date: 2005-09-09 17:35
Hello,
I'm a big fan of the "sweet spot" theory, having been shown this by Ben Armato in a lesson several years ago. On my Recital b-flat, my barrel points about an 1/8th turn clockwise (actually, I'm using my clarinet concepts barrel now, though--with no logo), and the bell is turned a quarter turn counter clockwise to find the "sweet spot". On the Recital A clarinet, a bit further for the bell. I use the same barrel on both instruments (which is great for instrument changes). On the e-flat Recital, the barrel has the logo facing me and the bell is counter clockwise about a quarter turn. So, I do believe in the "sweet spot", and I do believe it has nothing to do with logo stamping, regardless of brand.
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-09-09 19:23
Ben, I'd be interested in knowing how you determined where your 'sweet spots' are, and has any listener corroborated the superiority of those positions? Not trying to be argumentative -- I'm genuinely curious. (Even at my advanced age I might be able to learn something new! 
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Author: redwine
Date: 2005-09-09 23:00
Hello Dave,
Ben Armato found my "sweet spot" at a lesson several years ago when he told me about it. I really haven't had anyone listen to corroborate, but I have definitely found the spots that feel the best on my instruments. Whether or not one can hear that in a hall is yet to be scientifically studied. Dr. Henderson, care to perform a study?
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-09-10 00:33
Ben is correct. And so is GBK
Careful measurement of the barrel (ANY barrel) shows that it is very slightly ovoid. Turning the barrel on the long axis will change the response to some extent.
As far as logo placement on commercial barrels, I am with GBK on that one.
Ben...I think there is a small engraved logo on your barrel...just 2 initials of the maker, and a marking that indicates the length and that it is for a Selmer Recital.
I do NOT, however, place it on a "sweet spot" since it is placed BEFORE the bore is even finalized. I do enclose instructions about turning the barrel to find the best position.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2005-09-10 18:24
RE: The "sweet spot"
This is an accidental occurance, not a planned one. If anyone has made a woodwind instrument, they will know that one of the hardest tings to do is to come up with totally concentric, matching bores between sections.
To observe this in action, take a peek through the bottom of your clarinet to see if your bell is totally concentric with the bore of the lower joint. Many clarinets, if not most are quite a bit "off". It's amazing what gets past QA.
Many barrels are indeed, ovoid, or not totally concentic with the tenon sockets. Thus the barrel, while looking good from the outside, may be sitting slighly "off" on the inside.
This is not necessarily a terrible situation. However, it will make the barrel play differently as it is rotated on the upper joint tenon.
Therefore - finding the optimum position - is finding the "sweet spot".
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
Eb soprano, bass, and alto clarinet mouthpieces
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-09-10 23:25
Aussie Nick- I've found that on many Festival clarinets (both Bb and A) the fingering ooo|oxx works much better than ooo|xxo for throat G. Try it!
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Author: donald
Date: 2005-09-11 13:25
Mr Grabner- i proposed the same opinion (or theory, or indeed- fact) some years ago on this board and was more or less "laughed down"
this concentric mis-alignment (sp?) can also occur at the mouthpiece and middle joint sockets. At the mouthpiece in particular it would seem that the cork on the tenon can have considerable influence on alignment. Exactly what effect this has on the instruments acoustic performance is arguable, but i'd be willing to wager that the maker intended all the bits to line up.....
donald
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-09-11 14:23
The issue, if I may be so bold as to try to summarize, is not so much whether there exists ovality (out-of-roundness) and/or non-concentricity (misalignment of cylinder centerlines) in and between joints and barrels of clarinets --- certainly these are present, to various degrees, in every clarinet. I think the question is the extent of effects (if any) on playing characteristics caused by these deviations from geometric perfection. This underlying question needs and deserves, as the old advertisements used to say, "millions of dollars and years of research" to properly answer.
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Author: redwine
Date: 2005-09-11 15:23
Dave,
You can use all the big words you want. The true summary is to twist your barrel and bell around until it plays the best.
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-11 16:23
... but you're fundamentally stuffed as the top and bottom joints don't generally line up in this manner.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-09-11 18:33
Chris P stated:
<<<... but you're fundamentally stuffed as the top and bottom joints don't generally line up in this manner.>>>>
No,
You are not really stuffed...You can rotate the upper and lower joint, adjust or rotate your hands so that the thumb is where the pinky goes. ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
Chris I hope you were in jest. If not, we are talking bells and barrels, not joints.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-09-11 22:15
Thanks for clearing it up, Ben. I promise I'll keep my words short in the future for your benefit.
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Author: donald
Date: 2005-09-12 06:20
whoa there, you'all just calm down before you say things you don't really mean!
ok- over the years it has been accepted/established (whatever) by a large number of fine intellegent players from different nationalities etc that turning the bell/barrel to find a "sweet spot" MAY improve overall performance of the horn.
sure
it may also be that on some clarinets it doesn't make any difference (perhaps it's not out of alignment- or maybe there isn't a point in the rotation where it is true..... who knows).
There are also many very fine players who don't bother with this, who don't know about this or who don't really care enough to give it a fair go.
What is important is that players understand that this MAY have a beneficial effect (of lesser or greater proportion) and have the option of trying it out. I've heard/played clarinets where this did make a significant difference to the playability of the horn.
donald
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