 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: MikeH
Date: 2005-08-31 17:13
I have a Selmer "Centered Tone" which I bought second hand here in the States. It was apparently designated for sale in the US as it has the info about the Selmer USA agent on the logo. My question involves the two barrels that came with it. The shorter of the two plays beautifully in tune with an American made mpc, in this case a Portnoy #3. Is the longer barrel for a higher pitched mpc, say a 442, so that when used with the longer barrel the instrument will still play at 440? Or is it for some other purpose or purposes? I am curious so I hope that someone can fill me in. Thanks in advance.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-08-31 17:30
Most pro clarinets have two barrels as standard, one slightly shorter than the other, though I see in Buffet's brochure the shorter barrel is for 442Hz and the longer one for 440Hz - which isn't true as a clarinet will only play in tune with itself at the pitch it's built in, and using a different length barrel won't recallibrate the whole instrument equally, it will affect the upper left hand and throat notes a lot more than it will affect the right hand and low notes, if it affects them at all.
I had three barrels with my set of Centered Tones - two 67mm and one 63mm, so I shortened one of the long barrels to 65mm to make a set of three different length barrels, though I only use the 67mm one.
But with the 67mm one I still have to pull out by around 2mm (with a Vandoren 5RV Lyre) to play in an orchestra.
I've seen many Jazz players that have gone onto clarinet after playing sax, and they often use very short barrels (63mm or less!), a very wide mouthpiece and a soft reed to get the volume, and resulting in intonation problems.
If they were to use a long barrel with a close mouthpiece and harder reed, they'll end up playing incredibly flat.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-08-31 17:43)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-08-31 20:35
Chris P wrote:
> I've seen many Jazz players that have gone onto clarinet after
> playing sax, and they often use very short barrels (63mm or
> less!), a very wide mouthpiece and a soft reed to get the
> volume, and resulting in intonation problems.
I've known and played with many jazz saxophonists who double (quite well, mind you) on clarinet.
None of them use a "very short barrel, very wide mouthpiece and very soft reeds" (your words)
> If they were to use a long barrel with a close mouthpiece and
> harder reed, they'll end up playing incredibly flat.
In fact - using Eddie Daniels as one current example of a saxophonist who converted to clarinet, he does the exact opposite.
He also uses a close mouthpiece and a fairly stiff reed.
Incredibly flat? Nope...GBK
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-08-31 21:12
I never mentioned the fact they're in the same league as Eddie Daniels, and I never had Eddie Daniels in mind as I know he's a fantastic clarinettist, rather than a clarinet player.
I myself started clarinet after playing sax for a while, but had lessons from an excellent clarinettist who was new to the area (and has gone onto bigger and better things), so I was taught to play clarinet with a clarinet embouchure rather than a slightly firmer saxophone embouchure.
I'm talking of people I've seen as I happened to be in the same band as them, they have come to clarinet later in life than sax so they can play the arrangements where doubling is required, are self-taught and use pretty much the same embouchure on clarinet as they do on sax and want a similar set-up to make it easy for themselves, so their theory is to shorten the barrel to bring the clarinet up to pitch rather than develop a clarinet embouchure.
Worse still, there are some of them that teach clarinet, and complain that 'all my students' clarinets play flat' or 'why are all new clarinets flat?' - to the point that barrels on brand new B12s which are already short by most standards get shortened to 58mm by the teacher who takes their barrel home and shortens it, rings included!
So the student who plays slightly flat now has no chance of developing their embouchure or tone by playing up to pitch on a standard length barrel, as they'll be playing up to pitch with a slack embouchure on a shortened barrel.
I tried one of these B12s with the butchered barrel, the pupil's new teacher (a clarinet specialist) complained it was out of tune, when I tried it, it was a semitone sharp at the throat, and a quarter tone sharp in the right hand.
Then I gave the player in question a standard length B12 barrel to try instead, and they were spot on with the standard barrel as I was watching my tuner while the pupil played, they couldn't see the display while they played so they weren't influenced by the tuner to lip it up if it was flat.
Then there are some that have taken up flute and use a jaw vibrato, but that's another painful matter.
So long as they don't touch or teach double reeds.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-08-31 21:15)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-09-01 02:58
Chris P,
I read your comment "I've seen many Jazz players that have gone onto clarinet after playing sax, and they often use very short barrels (63mm or less!), a very wide mouthpiece and a soft reed to get the volume, and resulting in intonation problems" with interest.
I'm a sax player that went on to clarinet and I use a very wide MP (Portnoy B2 or a SWS B2), a 3 VD or MH La Voz, and the standard barrel on all my clarinets. I play very well in tune at all times and any other players that I know of that have "gone onto clarinet..." play extremely well in tune also.
Could you have over-generalized by using the word "many?" You must be hanging out with the wrong kind of doublers .
HRL
Post Edited (2005-09-01 03:17)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-01 09:56
I am indeed surrounded by the wrong kind of doublers - I wish they didn't double! I won't mention any names. But there are also some great players that I enjoy being in bands with that are excellent clarinet and flute doublers, but the aforementioned ones somehow seem to get the lion's share of band work for some reason ('connections' - that's the only reason, they have 'connections'), I would never have them in my band if I ran a band (the main culprit of this school of duff doubling even said to me at a rehearsal 'You'll never be in my band', to which I replied 'That's good,'cos I don't want to be in your band' followed by cheers from the trumpets who can't stand him either.)
Maybe an old, sharp-pitch instrument would be better suited to them(!) - with my 'Jazz' set-up (Selmer 120 and Vandoren 2.5 - still with a 67mm barrel) I was nearly a quarter tone sharper than them when we all were playing in unison (in an arrangement of 'What A Difference a Day Made' - what a difference indeed! If only...).
If there was some clarinet playing that he found difficult, he'd never pass the part onto someone that could play it, and play it in tune, but just sit and moan about how difficult it is!
Having said all that, I don't work with these people anymore, I'm working with musicians now.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-09-01 13:33
Hmmm.
I use an open mpc with a softer reed on my tenor sax.
And a closed/long with a harder reed on clar.
Stock barrels on the Centered tone should be matched to its bore (fairly wide by current standards). The exit bore of your mpc should also be appropriate.
If the barrels were purchased later, you might find that their bores are different, so the lengths might not necessarily achieve the desired result. Experiment.
As Matson said "this is where my art leaves off, and your playing takes over" or something to that effect.
Above all, have fun.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-01 14:53
I also use a fairly open mouthpiece on saxes (Lawton 6* & 7*) with a fairly soft reed (2 - 2.5 max.), and closed, long lay mouthpiece on clarinet, and I'm working towards using harder reeds, currently using Vandoren 2.5 as 3s (which I used to use) are a bit tough for me at the moment.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-09-01 15:29
The very fine Couesnon Monopole Conservatoires clarinets (roughly 1940s-70s?) were typically supplied with two barrels also.
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