 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-08-24 17:02
Hi! I've always been interested in playing the English Horn, but I know it's just a tenor oboe. I love the sound of the instrument and I have a few questions:
1. Would it effect my clarinet playing for the worse?
2. What kind of reeds does it use?
3. What's a good book to learn the English Horn with? A beginner book that is.
My school has an English Horn and one girl who tried it that is in my grade noted to me that it wasn't a good one. I don't know if it's actually bad, or if she was having a hard time playing it.
I talked to my orchestra teacher about playing English horn on a few pieces and he mentioned to me that our musical EVITA has some English Horn parts. John J. Moses, do you have anything to comment on this part? That would be appreciated! My orchestra teacher also said that since I'm interested in the English Horn, he'll look for some contest pieces with a English Horn part in it.
I've played clarinet for 8 years and can also play the Eb clarinet, Bass clarinet, tenor sax, and piano.
Thanks for all your help!
Post Edited (2005-08-30 21:04)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bflatclarinetist
Date: 2005-08-24 17:16
That's Hite's Study guide for the english horn.
http://www.jdhite.com/study/Oboe/Ehorn.htm
That's a good introduction to the english horn.
http://www.public.asu.edu/~schuring/Oboe/EH101.html
And this is a japanese Oboe and English Horn site with a lot of information (optional english):
http://www.dojindo.co.jp/labo/staff/kataoka/
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-08-24 17:18
It's an easier instrument to play than an oboe, I've got a lovely Marigaux cor which is very forgiving to play with a duff reed, the reeds don't have to be perfect as they do on an oboe, and as there's less breath resistance.
The downside on cor is playing the low E quietly without it kicking, due to the ill-placed tonehole for this note - it's placed where finger 6 sits comfortably rather than where it should be - about the same place where the pillar for the C key is.
The reed is slightly bigger than an oboe reed and fits over the crook, and leaks can be avoided with some silicone rubber tubing on the lower part of the staple to overlap the join between the staple and crook, or lick the narrow end of the crook before placing the reed on.
What make of cor is the one your school has?
It won't affect your clarinet playing, but the fingerings are very different so any good oboe tutor should be helpful, and most cors don't have a low Bb.
The worst part of oboe/cor playing is an A#-B trill - easy on flutes, clarinets and saxes, but a pain on the cor as you need to hold down the spatula key and the upper fingerplate for finger 1, along with finger 4 and trill with finger 2. I'll attempt a diagram: 1+spatula, 2(trilling with this finger) O/ 4 O O
Geoffrey Browne's 'The Art Of Cor Anglais' is a good book covering some important orchestral solos, and the Schirmer 'Solos For The English Horn' is also a good book with tunes from baroque to early 20th century.
I do recommend using a sling if playing for long periods as they do weigh a fair amount.
If doubling, keep the reed moist where and when you can (when you have plenty of bars rest) as the chances are you'll get a huge lonely solo with no time to warm up.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-08-24 17:22)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2005-08-24 18:06
In my high school band (Lincoln HS--Wisconsin Rapids, WI) some 50 years ago I doubled on clarinet and English horn when we performed a tone poem "Sequoia", by Oscar Legasse. Slurring down a fifth to low Eb was rather exiting!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-08-24 18:18
Oh yeah, watch slurs from D to F# up to A or B, make sure finger 4 comes off cleanly otherwise you'll get 'blips' (of either Bb or C depending which notes you're slurring to) that aren't welcome. I tend to cover the spatula if a B is involved just in case.
If you want to annoy the viola player in front of you, just crow your reed and say to them when they glare back, 'At least this makes a better sound than you do!'.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-08-24 18:24
Thanks for the help. I'll have to check what brand the English horn is tomorrow and what cor it is...
I posted this topic on the oboe board just now. Thanks GBK. I'll go look at those links now. Thanks!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-08-24 18:36
Clarinetgirl06, you wrote: "what brand the English horn is tomorrow and what cor it is..."
Maybe you were joking. But in case you weren't, or this is puzzling anyone else: A "cor anglais" and an "English horn" are the same thing. Cor anglais is the French name, and translates quite simply as English horn. In England it's usually called a cor, in Italian corno inglese, in German englisches Horn.
---
I have to say that I've never heard of anyone learning the cor without learning oboe first, just as nobody learns bass clarinet without learning the clarinet, or piccolo without learning the flute.
Now dozens of people will jump in to say that this is just what they did.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2005-08-24 18:38
David Peacham wrote:
> I have to say that I've never heard of anyone learning the cor
> without learning oboe first, just as nobody learns bass
> clarinet without learning the clarinet, or piccolo without
> learning the flute.
>
> Now dozens of people will jump in to say that this is just what
> they did.
I learned tenor sax at 13 and alto sax at 15.
Sorry......couldn't resist ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) ...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-08-24 18:40
Haha, sorry. I didn't know that a cor and English horn were the same thing.
Actually, I know of a kid in our orchestra who's an All-State Tenor sax player and he's our bass clarinet player. He's not the greatest at it, but he's acceptable.
We'll see what happens... maybe I'll be good, maybe I won't!
I've learned tenor sax and not alto sax. So that would mean I learned tenor sax first, just like GBK. haha.
Post Edited (2005-08-24 18:41)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-08-24 18:41
GBK, that does NOT count.
If you'd started on bass or sopranino, maybe so.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-08-24 18:47
Oops, I forgot about the language barrier!
Yeah, Cor Anglais = English Horn.
Crook = Bocal (for double reeds) or Neck (for singlr reeds),
Sling = Strap.
The English language eh? There's so much room for misinterpretaton! (That's coming from another Sussex lad!)
I only took up oboe to play cor, but there's no reason to do anything in the order which you're 'supposed' to.
I couldn't run before I could walk though, but it never stopped me trying.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-08-24 18:49)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-08-24 18:56
Chris P: Thank you so much for the translation. Now I know exactly what you are talking about. I figured out what the sling was. I know what bocals are and I know what the neck is (since I play bass clarinet).
Know of any good free recordings of the English Horn on the web?
So, English Horn and oboe have the same fingerings?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2005-08-24 19:00
David: They reason I learned tenor sax first was because I played in a rock band as a teen and we did lots of tunes which featured tenor sax.
How to be instantly popular in high school in the '60's? Learn the tenor sax solo to the Coaster's "Charlie Brown"
My first serious gigs as a teen on tenor sax were in the hotels and bungalow colonies in upstate NY.
Those experiences taught me more about music than any future college study...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-08-24 19:21
Hi Carrie,
Yes, they both pretty much have the same fingerings, though some of the altissimo fingerings may slightly differ, and different makes may work better with certain fingerings in the same way different clarinet makes differ too.
On cors (English Horns) there's a vent key to help the A on the top joint, and this closes with finger 3 (the reason being that the A tonehole is set near the key barrel so the venting is poor, and this key helps the clarity) - this hole is in the same position as the G# hole, so the altissimo F can be fingered without adding the G# key (if using the full fingering).
But the high notes are generally weak, so I wouldn't worry about playing higher than altissimo Eb.
Another thing is that the octaves aren't fully automatic as they are on saxes, but semi-automatic, so you have to switch them over yourself.
C# to Eb in the upper register (the open C# isn't used as on saxes, the long fingering has a better quality) are played either with finger 1 lifted off the top plate or rolled down to the lower half, depending if this fingerplate is screwed almost closed or opening fully.
Then from E to G# in the upper register, finger 1 closes the upper half of the finger plate and the back (thumb) octave key is used, and from A up to C the front (finger 1) or 2nd octave key is used (in a similar place to where the clarinet's throat G# key is) - and the thumb can remain on the back 8ve key as they will switch over - this is done with a wrist movement when finger 3 is raised, turning your wrist so finger 1 opens the front octave touch.
From C# to Eb in the altissimo register, neither octave keys are used, but finger 1 is either lifted or rolled down, then from E upwards the back octave is used, and if there's a 3rd octave (if fitted, a touch overlapping the back octave) this can be used from E upwards as well, but don't press this key too hard or it will bend and hold the back octave open.
The German and East European players prefer fully automatic octaves, but the extra mechanism needs to be set up perfectly as there's no room for regulation error, unlike saxes which have the most reliable mechanism, no matter how bad they are made they generally work.
I must admit though, that playing the same oboe pieces on cor without transposing them seems a lot easier than playing them on oboe. Maybe it's just psychological, but I do find playing cor much more rewarding than oboe.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-08-24 19:29)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-08-24 21:08
What an interesting group of comments, I'm just amazed by Chris, David P et al's knowledge of the tenor-oboe, our EH/CA. In my oboe playing days, I helped?? buy an EH, it turned out to be a Loree copy, and the 2 E's were badly out of tune, and being the tuning note, was frustrating. We did [try to] play the Franck D'minor, and others, and I struggled with intonation. It still was pref. [to me] to the small "Ill Wind". Would like to try again ! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-08-24 21:19
One day someone will hopefully design and build a cor where the E hole will be in it's correct place, and the correct size.
The new Howarth XL oboe d'amore has the redesigned right hand tonehole layout, which is a step in the right direction, shame there's not that much call for d'amores in the majority of orchestral music.
I wouldn't mind doing Somerset Rhapsody or Sinfonia Domestica on one of these D'amores. That's if the opportunity ever arises.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-08-24 22:58)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: diz
Date: 2005-08-24 22:49
The cor anglais is a delight ... you've almost inspired me to get one!!
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: diz
Date: 2005-08-24 22:50
Chris P ... you won't be playing Sinfonia Domestica on an enlgish horn, it's not scorred for one ... at least the big solo is for the oboe d'amore
Here is the orchestration:
3+1, 2+1+obd'a, 4+1, 4+1, 4sax - 8, 4, 3, 1, timp, perc, 2hp, str
yes - there is an EH too.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2005-08-24 22:52)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-08-24 23:08
I missed the word d'amore from my last sentence, but just edited that.
Even d'amores are nicer to play than oboes - and hearing Heinz Holliger play JS Bach's concerto in D on his (probably a Rigoutat) is even more reason to play the deeper oboes.
I tried a Heckelphone once, didn't think it was worth the high price whereas a Loree bass oboe made a far better sound in my opinion for around a third of the price, even if it was two semitones shorter.
You do the maths.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-08-25 02:26
And then there's Swan Of Tuonela, every English horn player's dream showcase. A very evocative concert piece that I've usually seen programmed as the crooked horn's player's reward for playing two or three other concerts that season.
A very neat piece, one that I'd willingly sign up for as well. (The bass clarinet player has few notes to play but five of them quite prominent as the gates of hell open). Imagine five minutes of counting rests to play for less than ten seconds.
I doubled EH about as much as I did bassoon back in the day. Self taught, and never learned any more than was necessary cover the parts in various musicals through the years. A neat sounding instrument, with a double reed that was neither too darned small (oboe) nor too darn big (bassoon). I even owned an old one for a while, but sold it as part of a liquidation of seldom used stuff to buy a sailboat.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-08-25 13:26
Ah YES, the "death" Swan, there is much more fine music by Sibelius in his "Kalavala" , I even got a [trans] copy of this WILD legend by library loan , trying to understand what Sib way saying in this magnificant music. Thots/memories in this AM. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: contragirl
Date: 2005-08-26 05:08
Hey, you sound like me! I've always wanted to play Eng Horn too! (Like when I was in middle school) It always looked so cool, but I had never known what is sounded like until years later. I finally got to play one on this tour I just came back from and it was pretty hard. Mainly cuz the reed was too hard.
Next double reed to try: Heckelphone.
(My tech owns one!) lol
Oh, and I too went straight from clarinet to bari. :D
--CG
Post Edited (2005-08-26 05:09)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-08-26 08:48
I'm glad I went onto bari as there's so few bari players where I live, and I've played in nearly every Big Band across three counties.
At least now (18 years on) I'm beginning to realise I'm no longer the youngest player in bands, but only just.
Now I've just had a call to play in West Side Story - and that's going to use nearly all my resources.
I'll use this as a checklist nearer the time so I won't forget anything:
Flute, Piccolo, Oboe, Cor Anglais, Eb, Bb and Bass Clarinets, Soprano, Tenor and Baritone Saxes. And all their stands.
Good job I've got a Volvo to transport them all in. I might manage to take a trumpet player and his gear as well if I'm feeling generous.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-08-28 10:22)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Wes
Date: 2005-08-29 04:06
Hi!
Some great advvice above, especially from Chris.
Having made thousands of oboe reeds and quite a many EH reeds, I feel that the oboe is an easier instrument to deal with. I've played a lot of the standard literature and some not so standard. I've almost always used the American scrape and have used very few purchased reeds in orchestras or chamber music.
While I have a fine Loree EH, I have to be very careful with the reeds in order to have it ring in the tuning ballpark allowing an in tune performance. Perhaps the American scrape EH reeds are more sensitive in the tuning area than the Continental or British reeds, they having a shorter, and perhaps more stable scrape. On the oboe, my reeds are very stable and tuning seems not to be any problem. With the oboe, I don't get concerned about p or f entrances anywhere in the range.
Lately, I'm experimenting with a hybrid reed for EH that combines some features of the American and Continental scrapes in hopes of finding it a little less unstable.
Generally speaking, most players start on the oboe and add the EH later.
Good Luck!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-08-29 07:46
I'm using a Fox cor reed, American scrape which is easy to get on with and works well at short notice, though the sound can get flabby. I've got a nice Wiggins reed for more demanding playing and plenty of spares should my favourite two start fraying.
My preferrence for oboe reeds is a long w scrape with wire, though a new source of oboe reeds I'm having success with is a U scrape, and wired.
The wire helps control the aperture, the reed should be well sealed with varnish on the binding making it airtight. Check in a similar way you check your clarinet reeds against the mouthpiece by covering the bottom end with your finger and sucking the air out - you should get a temporary vacuum when the blades are closed, and a decent 'pop' when they open. If not, coat the binding in clear nail varnish, and the sides of the reed where both blades join up to about 5mm from the binding.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-08-29 08:09)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-08-29 13:55
Clear nail polish...the double reed player's friend...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kenabbott
Date: 2005-08-30 20:08
I play oboe and EH also. Don't go straight to EH. You should do oboe first.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-08-30 20:40
What is the exact pit orchestration for Evita?
What is the quality of the clarinet parts? I'm usually the 1st chair clarinet(the book that has the most clarinet parts/solos and that's the hardest book)
Also what's the quality of the other woodwind parts?
I'm listening to the Broadway Cast of EVITA right now, but it's hard to pick out individual instruments sometimes.
Please help me with this! Thanks!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: diz
Date: 2005-08-30 23:30
Carrie - why are you stressing about this show, can I suggest you just enjoy it and stop trying to prove that its the hardest or the most difficult clarinet part - trust me ... the audience won't give a damn.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: anonrob
Date: 2005-08-31 00:01
The easiest way to find out what parts are in which book is to go to the website of the company that licenses the material, in this case Rodgers and Hammerstien Theatricals, and look at the rental materials. The ww books listed on the site are
1 REED I: Flute Piccolo
1 REED II: B-Flat Clarinet, E-Flat Clarinet
1 REED III: B-Flat Clarinet, Tenor Sax, Bassoon, Bass Clarinet
1 REED IV: Oboe, English Horn
This is somewhat different from the touring books which have the ob/eh in a tenor book and no bassoon, but I digress.
I don't know why you were worried about English Horn in the Clarinet book since it doesn't seem to be there.
Take diz's advice and relax. The only really difficult part in any of Lloyd Webber's stuff is counting. He loves meter changes.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BlockEyeDan
Date: 2005-08-31 01:09
Just paid a visit to the Oboe Pages. Good Lord. I thought clarinetists had reed issues. 
Dan
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2005-08-31 02:00
When we did EVITA, many years ago, on Broadway, the clarinet book had Eb clarinet as the only double (no oboe or English horn). The touring books may have moved the oboe or English horn to the clarinet book in order to make a three book reed section.
The oboe player at our pit always hired "straight-legit" oboe/EH players. It's not a book for amateur doublers.
The EH is quite different from playing any of the clarinets or saxophones.
Their are dozens of fine "single reed" doublers here in NYC, but only a handful of terrific "double reed" doublers.
If you like the EH and the oboe, then go for it! But it's not easy, and you'll have to do double-time on your practice sessions. If you have the chops and determination, you'll make it, but give yourself time to develop.
Perhaps you're talking about the EVITA SUITE?
Here's the instrumentation:
EVITA SUITE
Music by: Andrew Lloyd Webber
Lyrics by: Tim Rice
Orchestration by: Hershy Kay
Duration: 10 minutes
Requirements: Instrumental, Mezzo Solo
Comments: 10 minutes
Instrumentation: 3(3 dbls Picc & Alto Flute)-3(3 dbls EH)-3(1 dbls A Clarinet, 2 dbls Eb Clarinet & Alto Sax, 3 dbls Bass Clarinet)-2/4-3-2(+BsTrb)-1 / Harp, Timpani,
Percussion: Piatti/Large Shaker/Timbales/Claves/Side Drum/Cowbell/Bass Drum/Tambourine
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-08-31 03:07
Thanks everyone. I'm actually not freaking out at all. AND, it's more complicated than that. I was trying to decide whether or not I wanted to do the chorus or the pit. I was in the chorus for Footloose my freshman year and it was cool and then I did pit sophomore and junior year and I was trying to decide if I wanted to bookend my high school career with chorus or continue with pit. I had to decide this all by tomorrow, so that's why it was a little hurried.
I'm actually talking about the whole musical EVITA which is way more than 10 minutes long. See, I'm trying to figure out how many clarinet players we need for it and such and I am always on the hardest/main clarinet part book.
Diz-I'm not trying to prove if something is difficult-I was asking what was difficult. There's a difference. This thread just got started because I was curious about a clarinet player playing the English horn. But, I found out that our school's EH is in horrible condition, so someone's just going to play the parts on either oboe or clarinet instead. So yeah, I'm not freaking out, just curious and a little rushed to make decisions.
I decided to do pit instead of chorus.
Thanks for all the help! I still want to learn English Horn though! Too bad my school's is beyond awful!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
