 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-06-16 03:14
Today I got the June 2005 Issue of Clarinet Mag and on page 40 there is an article by Keith Stein which (obviously) he wrote many years ago and was brought out by David Pino.
It was about side to side tonguing for rapid articulation with moving the jaw back and forth as well.
huh????
I would think that a movement like that would give the player TMD over time. Up and down (vertical) such as a sax player does for vibrato wouldn't do that, but horizontal movement?????
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Author: RosewoodClarinet
Date: 2005-06-16 03:23
I have never been taught that kind of tonguing........
I was taught not to mave jaw and tongue tiny slight below the tip of reed. This is my basic knowledge.
RosewoodClarinet
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-06-16 03:26
This is for multiple tonguing, not regular.
I do it at speeds completely off the chart, but no jaw movement. It's a side to side swing that most tongues just don't work that way at all.
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Author: William
Date: 2005-06-16 15:07
"It's a side to side swing that most tongues just don't work that way at all."
Huh???????
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Author: archer1960
Date: 2005-06-16 19:20
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> What don't you understand - can you tongue sideways rapidly?
I can, and I thought everybody could. I can't go up and down or in and out nearly as fast as I can sideways.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-06-16 19:32
No archer - it is unusual. Sure everybody can move their tongue to the side back and forth but typically it is very clunky and quite slow.
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Author: archer1960
Date: 2005-06-16 19:54
That's interesting. I wonder if it's related to the fact that my tongue had a wide strip of flesh connecting it to the bottom of my mouth when I was born, and it wasn't cut (lingual frenectomy) until I was in Jr. High. It significantly limited the range of motion of my tongue in the up-and-down and in-and-out direction, so I may not have developed the neuro-muscular coordination to allow rapid normal tonguing.
It wasn't enough to hinder my speech or clarinet playing (keeping it on topic <grin>), but I couldn't stick my tongue out at anybody much beyond my lips. I couldn't flutter-tongue either, which my brass-playing friends thought weird.
The things you learn, in the strangest places ... ;-)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-06-16 19:58
It's called being "tongue tied" - I've had 3 such students who were in the 22 years I've taught. One student has it and so does his mother so I'd imagine that it has a genetic link too.
2 I didn't touch at all, but the 3rd one I was able to correct the malady with my reed knife.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-06-16 19:58
(((just kidding)))
But the tongue tied comment is true. Had 2 Sax students with it and 1 flutist. All 3 could tongue just fine, but had to modify how they did it.
Post Edited (2005-06-16 20:04)
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Author: archer1960
Date: 2005-06-16 20:04
"One student has it and so does his mother so I'd imagine that it has a genetic link too."
Definitely a genetic link; the oral surgeon who did mine said it runs in families, and my father and daughter both have that condition. Not my son, though...
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-06-16 20:21
Rumor is that Landwell is taking on Bard Parker Surgical Inc. and offering an IPO on their new surgical supply division. Merrell Lynch has rights to the first pop.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: William
Date: 2005-06-16 21:13
DB asked, "What don't you understand - can you tongue sideways rapidly?"
I do not understand the sentence as you wrote it, that's all. I don't mean to make this a big gramatical deal, but did you mean, "It's a side to side swing that most tongues find impossible to perform"?? That, I can relate too. I tried the side to side method on my bass clarinet last week, and while I can "wag" my tongue quite rapidly by itself in my mouth, I cannot make that motion work for articulational purpose on my reed. All I get is, "thuh-thuh, thuh-thuh". I even read that artical twice to make sure I didn't miss something.
And to move the jaw at the same time--yikes! With all do respect to Mr. Stein, I'll stick to my old MT skills for those machine fire notations conductors love to take too fast.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-06-16 23:51
What's wrong about this technique if it works for him? Maybe it will work for some others too. Just leave him alone.
Huuh!
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-06-17 08:54
God bless his soul. It might as well work for some others anyway. Everybody have their own solution for quick tonguing when single tonguing isn't quick enough. It's very individual. Don't ever interfere with individual solutions for individual problems. There are some basics you have to learn plying the clarinet. For the rest you have to learn to know your own mouth, tongue, cavity and throat and develop what works for you. I’ve never met a conductor who has asked me how I do something as long as I do it. Use your ears, if it sounds good it’s probably good. Whatever works is fine.
This little summary gives good explanations to basic tonguing as well as refers to books and articles on the subject, and most of all, it contradicts almost everything I’ve read on this board. No hissing cats here:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/thomas.dowling/TongMM.html
Alphie
Post Edited (2005-06-17 09:17)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-06-18 18:30
Has anybody else tried that method of multiple tonguing?
One of the advantages of it is that it has no range issues. So extreme altissimo is the same as a lower note - not harder.
Double tonguing typically gets much more difficult after about the 1st leger line A.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2005-06-19 14:49
Alphie wrote:
<<This little summary gives good explanations to basic tonguing as well as refers to books and articles on the subject, and most of all, it contradicts almost everything I’ve read on this board. No hissing cats here:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/thomas.dowling/TongMM.html
>>
The main message of this reference -- and, I think, a correct message -- simply repeats what you wrote previously: namely, that different people do different things with their tongue in order to achieve roughly the same result.
However, though it provides plenty of evidence for that assertion in the form of references to the things people have said along the lines of 'what you should do with your tongue', it's pretty thin on the ground with regard to explanation, I feel.
I'd like to offer a reference of my own, posted to the Klarinet list some years ago. It starts slowly, being concerned to explain the use of metaphor in teaching, but then offers a sequence of ways to think about articulation that several people have told me they have found useful. (It deliberately says practically nothing about the details of 'what you should do with your tongue', which I imagine you might approve of.)
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/1999/09/000395.txt
Tony
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-06-19 19:16
This is also what Tyler was talking about in his post called ICA Article.
I can move my tongue very rapidly back and forth, but I need to try it on my clarinet. I tried to reed the article, but just got very confused...
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-06-19 19:34
Tony is a monster at articulation too. If you've heard his Mozart Concerto recording it is stunning.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-06-21 09:00
Tony, I should have written suggestions instead of explanations. There have been a few threads here lately that have brought up issues about embouchure, mouth position, chin and cheek position, tonguing and articulation. Very often there are posters who obviously also are teachers. What upsets me is that some have such rigid ideas about these matters and how they impose only one way, supposedly the only way they know to everyone instead of trying to figure out what is the best method for each individual. On this board it seems like it’s the gospel of “flat and pointed” chin and cheek position and “tip-to-tip” tonguing saying “eeeh” or “hissing like a cat” that is preached. Add to this that you’re supposed to say “Q” for a firm embouchure and the confusion would be complete for me as a student.
To say “eeeh” requires a tongue position similar to flute or recorder playing and should IMO not be used for an instrument where you have to put one half inch of material in your mouth unless you have a very short tongue. Also, this high tongue position most likely choke some of the air flow for people with a normal or a long tongue. However, this is ONE method that works for SOME and should not be imposed on every student. There are teachers on this board who state that they would never teach any other method. Consequently they ban other methods that could be better for some/ (most?) students and that scares me.
I think you would agree to that this and similar methods were practically abandoned in Europe some 20 -30 years ago. The last professor who taught like this in Scandinavia died in the mid 80th. To my knowledge it has never been used in Germany, Austria or England.
What I want to show here is that it’s documented that there are many different ways of tonguing, different mouth positions and that in fundamental training of clarinet playing there are only a few basic things to keep in mind for a start. To develop individual skills from this point it’s very important to do that in harmony with each individual’s oral setup and possibilities.
For your information, here's a thread to analyse: http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=180200&t=179876
Alphie
Post Edited (2005-06-21 10:00)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2005-06-21 14:20
Mm, I completely agree with you.
The ability to think for yourself, and discover things about playing for yourself, is a very important part of your development as a player.
Received wisdom may help, if it's appropriate. But in a forum like this, it is impossible to give detailed instructions that will be appropriate to everyone.
Tony
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-06-21 15:10
It's easy to go "poo poo" on what you don't know, or are unfamiliar with. The different systems work for the teachers of the different systems.
And the "hissing" method works just fine for those who teach it to their students. Gigliotti wasn't one of those teachers as he didn't believe in that. I learned it after studying with him so I can see the benefits of using that method and the reasons why not to.
You don't hear players playing with a "spread sound" who are using the hissing method and that's a great reason to use it.
Post Edited (2005-06-21 15:18)
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-06-21 15:50
Maybe it works for the teachers but what about the students? I still think this smells like sectarianism I'm sorry to say. I've seen it before and I recognice it now.
Alphie
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-06-21 16:24
I actually tried this side to side tongue wagging and I actually got it to work. I can move my tongue very rapidly side to side naturally and it took me a couple of attempts to actually get it right with the clarinet. I didn't experiment deeply with this, but I will this afternoon. It makes me curious!
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-06-21 16:39
Put your hand on your heart David... how sure are you that it works for EVERYONE? Do they really tell YOU everything?
Alphie
Post Edited (2005-06-21 16:46)
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Author: SueSmith
Date: 2005-06-21 17:12
Alphie,
I'm in 100% agreement with you. Too many teacher's demand that all their students play this way, on this equipment. I had one of those teachers at my first college...and everytime I tried to tell them that my reeds felt to hard, they gave me 101 reasons why I should not play on anything lower than a #5 Vandoreen Blue Box. Needless to say, it has taken me 10 years after the fact to decide to play on what was comfortable for me - regardless of what teacher A or teacher B said...and I sound better for it.
You can certainly take the idea's from teachers or articles and apply it to your own anatomy, and any serious pedagogue is always looking to better their understanding. So David is correct in saying at least give it a try...but Alphie is also correct in that it may not work for most players.
PS. The " cat hissing" theory closes off my throat for some reason, so I can not utilize it. But through experimentation I've found what works for me. I never studied with Gigliotti, although I did study with a student of his. His student never taught the "hissing" method...perhaps it didn't work for him either in the long run?
Post Edited (2005-06-21 17:13)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-06-21 18:52
No, Gigliotti never taught the hiss method. My choice was to learn several different methods and apply what worked, or combination worked for me.
When I teach, I use whatever works for the student. The other thing is that if somebody is advocating use of the "hissing method", but can't teach it well, than of course the students will just end up closing off their airway and not focusing the stream which is what it is supposed to do.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-06-21 18:59
----------------------------------
Put your hand on your heart David... how sure are you that it works for EVERYONE? Do they really tell YOU everything?
-----------------------------------
Alphie, of course not. Nothing ever works for everybody. However what you had written was that it probably doesn't work for most, and I'd challenge that statement.
by the way - I don't teach the hiss method unless I feel that the student needs to try that method to fix a particular problem that they are having with their sound.
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Author: SueSmith
Date: 2005-06-21 22:57
Ah David, I misread your post - you did indeed write that Mr. Gigliotti does NOT teach the "hiss" method...no wonder his student didn't either!
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-06-21 23:43
I think this discussion is mainly about which attitude teachers have to their students. You never know from the beginning how a student is going to develop. That’s why it’s so important that beginners get appropriate guidance from the start. If the student shows strong ambition even after a few years and is making progress it’s very likely that he/she wants to try to have music as a profession. Now the teacher is suddenly the most important person in their life besides the parents.
Music is for most musicians and music students at least 50% of their life besides family and friends. A teacher should think of himself as being a father figure. Like fathers there are all kinds. There are fathers who want the kids to achieve what they never could achieve themselves. There are fathers who get jealous with the kids if they’re getting too good at something. There are fathers who simply demand that the kids do what they’re told. There are fathers who teach the kids the basics in life/ (clarinet playing) and as soon as they get small wings they want them to learn how to fly and develop their own way, always standing by if something goes wrong.
It’s this last figure that I believe is the best father/ teacher. This father gives advices, not rules and gently let the kids learn from making their own mistakes. He’s trustful and comforts and that generates self-confidence. He also knows when to let go and when it’s time to let someone else taking over the responsibility when he has done enough.
Respect and integrity as well as scolding and praise are all key words here, but mainly the first two.
Alphie
Post Edited (2005-06-22 09:17)
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