 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-05-23 17:44
If we compare different wind instruments, then there are points of technique where they vary a lot. Fingering, of course. Tonguing. The position and tension of the lips.
But when it comes to breathing, air flow, and the elusive "air support" we are debating in another thread, it seems there is a lot in common.
I'm interested to hear the views of the multi-instrumentalists amongst us. Do you breath the same way, or support the air the same way, regardless of whether you are playing an oboe or a bass trombone? Or are there things that have to be unlearnt?
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Llewsrac
Date: 2005-05-23 18:45
For me, the basic concept of support remains the same regardless of the instrument I might be playing. The method or technique of support I use on Tuba is the same for Clarinet, trumpet., ect. With the Oboe the support is the same but there is usually an air surplus that has to be discharged at the end of a phrase before a fresh intake of air.
I describe my method of breathing as lying down on my bed, on my back, and breathing deep and naturally just as one breaths before falling asleep. You may place a inch thick book on your stomach and watch the muscles at work raising and lowering the book. I have witness instructors come up behind players and as they breath in and play a whole note punch the player in the stomach with the instructors fist. Some students have the mouthpiece fly out of their mouth and bend double, while others continue to play their tone strong and steady with not disturbance to the air stream. The instructor demonstrating always points to example two as an example of good support?
Regardless of the tricks ( like the fist in the stomach) If you play a wind instrument the mechanics of breathing and support remains a constant, what occures with that supported air once it is unleashed into the different wind instruments is another tale for around the camp fire.
Do percussionist support?????
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2005-05-23 22:05
Absolutely, percussionists support air. It is critical for a percussionist to play well to be able to come in with the band together. Wind instruments inherently have a split second delat for the wind to get the end of the horn. Percussionists have to match our breath support so they are not early. Not quite the same kind of support, but invariably important nonetheless.
Post Edited (2005-05-23 22:05)
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-05-24 04:15
Do percussionists support? Are you kidding? Of course they do, (they breathe, count, phrase, dynamicize) in the same sense that all musicians support one another. It's called teamwork 
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: Markus Wenninger
Date: 2005-05-24 06:05
What we call "support" is a heightened awareness of the hara, the centre of gravity/anatomy/muscular force in humans, a bit below the navel usually. Regardless of instrument every performer has to develope a certain passive activity there, that is to say not actively tightening muscles, because that would result in blocking the support, airways, bloodflow, solarplexus, overall flexibilty of the muscular chains necessary for a steady and calm posture and working of the instrument. It´s rather a form of bodily attention, a readiness to let rip at any moment, without straining anything,neither sensual nor muscular elements, a forceful calm flow. Since I, besides some odd percussion and toy instruments, play only windinstruments, it´s the same to me, saxophone and clarinet differ only gradually, not categorically, the shakuhachi being the most touchy because force/will doesn´t lead anywheres here, the didgerido is nearly all working of diaphragm, all other kinds of flutes roughly as well. / This fist/stomch - method is rude, but adaequate - the result is the same if the teacher´s hand is just placed flat on the pupil`s stomach and the task is to "blow" that hand away, gently, like blowing out a candle. Certainly windinstruments are the most bodily of instruments, only surpassed by singers, and knowledge of the body´s subtle working must be a central part of any teaching. BtW, teaching/learning circular breathing is not the only but certainly a most effective way of making someone aware/learning how to play according to the body´s breathing rhythm, to get a notion about the flowing continuum instead of the ruckus of inhale/exhale.
Markus
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Author: Meri
Date: 2005-05-25 20:05
I tend to think there are certain concepts that apply to many instruments. Like the use of lots of air speed applies to every wind instrument. Where you move your fingers from--move your fingers from the lowest knuckle of the fingers as opposed to the higher knuckles. (my first clarinet instructor taught me that, and my piano instructor has reminded me occasionally--really improves hand position and accuracy.) The head forward vs. head down. (I see a lot of young students of all instruments do this). The angle of the instrument, especially with young flutists, trombonists, and trumpeters who often seem to point their sound towards the floor!)
Madeline Bruser's The Art of Practicing gives further discussion of some of the playing problems that may develop with various instruments.
Meri
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-05-25 22:06
<<Wind instruments inherently have a split second delay for the wind to get the end of the horn.....>>
I don't think so! Producing the sound is not an issue of air travelling from one end of the instrument to the other. The TRAVEL of the air is used only for the exciting of the reed at the mouthpiece, and any travel further down the instrument is a byproduct.
Air support - IMHO:
For me, 'support' means air pressure, in a technical sense. The air behind the reed or mouthpiece has only this quality, and nothing else mystical. The means by which this pressure is obtained varies a bit between capable musicians, no matter how pedantic some people may like to get about how exactly how it SHOULD be done. This is irrespective of instrument.
For each combination of other parameters such as instrument, note, tone, pitch, volume, embouchure, reed, instrument design etc, there is a quite small range of pressures that are suitable.
A good player selects this pressure appropriately, usually subconsciously, from accumulated experience.
The good player has complete control of the air pressure, and is capable of producing high pressures when required. He/she has the required degree of physical fitness to be comfortable about tightening the appropriate muscles to achieve and maintain this.
My attempts at altissimo playing, and low note baritone sax doubling, have highlighted for me that for some instruments in particular, the ideal embouchure/pressure parameters that are most appropriate for initiating a note, may well be slightly different from the ideal parameters needed to sustain that note.
I consider this to be the only difference in manner of support needed for different instruments.
This is actually encompassed by the summary that the issue is only one of DEGREE of pressure required for each situation. Everything else is the personal images that some people resort to in order to achieve this pressure.
IMHO.
Post Edited (2005-05-26 11:43)
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Author: kenabbott
Date: 2005-05-27 00:38
Oboe is another breed of cat. The air is sopported differently and the breathing is much different.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-05-27 12:22
IMHO, for an oboe, one breathes in similarly to any other instrument, and plays the instrument with more air pressure than one uses most of the time with other instruments, but with very little air flow. So the player has to get their body used to rather less oxygen input for periods of time. An oboe player may have to exhale spent air before inhaling during a rest.
Otherwise I cannot see any difference. It is all to do with appropriate air PRESSURE for the demands of the instrument and the way it is being played.
The lungs are a passive organ, responding to the muscles associated with them, i.e. the diaphragm(only for inhaling), the abdominals, and the intercostals (between the ribs), The only effect that these muscles can have on the lungs and hence to the air in the lungs and mouth, is to exert more or less pressure. They cannot impart any other 'mystical' property.
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Author: Kel
Date: 2005-05-27 21:30
Gordon (NZ) wrote
> So the (oboe) player has to get their body used
> to rather less oxygen input for periods of time.
Oxygen deprivation would explain the behavior of several oboe players I have known.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2005-05-28 00:50
I've come to think that the phenomenon of people understanding the word 'support' in different ways may be a really major difficulty in wind teaching.
As an example, see the first post of the thread here called 'Support': which tries to distinguish between 'blowing the clarinet properly' and 'playing with support'.
This distinction, seemingly trivial to some, may be much more important than I'd previously thought.
Tony
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-05-28 12:41
Surely:
'cold air' = air with higher pressure driving the air movement, coupled with smaller lip or reed aperture in order to maintain that higher pressure, resulting in higher speed of the airstream past the lips or reed.
'Warm air' = air with lower pressure driving the air movement, coupled with lower resistance from a larger lip or reed aperture, hence less airstream speed past the lips or reed.
I rather suspect that air pressure is a more universally understood concept that that of cold and warm air, which is meaningless until related to change in some muscular activity which alters pressure.
Never mind. There are many ways of teaching, but we must bear in mind that each way will have meaning only to SOME students. We really should teach concepts in many ways, so that the student learns from the way that he finds most meaningful.
Personally, I find it more meaningful to know exactly what the body must do to make a change in playing. Having consciousness of these changes puts me in greater control of them.
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