 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: marcello.mollo
Date: 2005-01-07 22:34
I am a very amateur returning player considering the purchase of a Buffet C-12 in need of an overhaul. Can anyone recommend an excellent, reputable technician with reasonable prices? How much do I need to spend to get a decent overhaul? I am in the San Francisco Bay area and my guess is that prices are higher here ($400 for an overhaul) than in smaller cities.
Any input appreciated.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ron b
Date: 2005-01-07 22:55
Over here in the Sacramento area prices are considerably less than in The City. But then, prices are sky high for everything over there. I'm 'guess'-timating that the average price around here is between $130.00 and $160.00 - as of today's date. You should ask around to get recommendations because there has recently been some [attempts at] gouging. There are also the usual, probably the nationwide average, percentage of butchers you should know about.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dano
Date: 2005-01-08 01:15
Probably not the least expensive place in town, but Best Music in Oakland (510-832-2024) has access to the best repair people in No. Ca. They work on alot of pros horns and they have alot of very knowledgable people that can guide you to the right repair job if theirs is too expensive. Maybe some of those smaller cities have decent repair people that won't charge you those crazy S.F. prices we have to pay, if you don't mind shipping your clarinet.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: marcello.mollo
Date: 2005-01-08 01:18
Thanks Dano. Best is who quoted me the $400. But asking them for less expensive alternatives is a good idea.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2005-01-08 01:21
Without defining what an overhaul actually is (or what exactly will be done) all this talk on the overhaul prices makes no cense.
Our local Sam Ash charges $170.00 for an overhaul. It seams reasonable. Right? They'll re-pad your clarinet replace some corks and might do some cleaning with a rag. Ha-ha! That's basically what you get for your money. Now you realize that the price is outrageous for this kind of work and they call it 'an overhaul with a new pads'.
REAL professional technician might charge you $400.00 and more for an overhaul but he spends 4 days working on your horn and when you get it back it will play and work better than any new horn fresh from the factory. So in this case you get what you paid for.
To get the idea click on: Thomas Ohme clarinet service http://www.woodwind-shop.com/clarinet.html
There's one clown on this board who claims he can actually do an overhaul in an hour. So or he doesn't know what an overhaul actually is or he is a superman. Or maybe this word has different meaning for different people in different countries.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: marcello.mollo
Date: 2005-01-08 01:27
Thanks Vytas. Very useful information. I guess $350-400 is the right neighborhood for the real deal.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: pewd
Date: 2005-01-08 02:14
heres another one for comparision: http://www.prowinds.com/repair/clarep.html
when i get a horn overhauled, i expect all new pads, all new key corks, all new tenon corks, tenon rings tightened, keys swedged, teflon inserts where indicated, wood cleaned, oiled, minor crack repair, loose posts tightened, weak/rusty springs replaced, key work adjusted and regulated, worn screws replaced, keys buffed, tone holes leveled and chips repaired, and 1/2 dozen other tasks. so sure, thats worth $350-400.
many shops make little distinction between a repad and an overhaul. one local shop here charges $175 for a repad, and $225 for an overhaul, the difference being they buff the keys on the overhaul. no adjusting of loose/worn keys, no resetting of loose posts, wont tighten/balance the springs, etc. so basically a ripoff on their 'overhaul work, they refuse to do more extensive work without charging a great deal more. e.g. they and i do not agree on what an 'overhaul' is.
make sure you understand what work will be done - and if you really need an overhaul, vs a repad. most good shops, a repad includes all new key corks, tenon corks, and a few springs and screws if needed. more extensive work falls into the 'overhaul' category.
-paul
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ron b
Date: 2005-01-08 06:20
If you feel so inclined, Marcello, contact me off the BBoard (to send an e-mail, you just click the blue [author:] name).
- ron b -
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-01-08 10:28
Overhaul means different things on different instruments.
To overhaul an old, neglected instrument with wobbling posts, pivot slop, rust in pivot tubes, chips out of tone hole edges, wobbling centre tenon, loose tenon corks, mouldy body, and rusted springs can take many times longer that 'overhauling' an instrument that has been kept in good nick, and has silencing materials that are virtually indestructible and securely glued, not NEEDING replacement, and guaranteed to be reliable well into the future.
I do not know to whom Vytas refers, but I rather suggest that the 1 hr 'overhaul' that he so scathingly mentions is taken out of context. If all other aspects of a clarinet were in excellent condition to last reliably well into the future except for the pads - perhaps with thin, brittle membranes as has been common on top pro new - then the 'overhaul' needed - in this case a repad ONLY - to get the clarinet into top condition, could indeed take only an hour, with the speed, efficiency, and precision that experience brings.
The term 'overhaul' is pretty meaningless unless it is detailed for any particular instrument.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: nickma
Date: 2005-01-08 11:41
I'd struggle to do a full overhaul in less than 8 hours, ideally over 2-3 days. In my experience it's worth letting things settle down for a day or so, then go back to it to fine tune.
Vytas, you're the pro - do you fine tune over time, or this just for us Ams?
BTW:What do you consider to me your most indispensible piece of equipment?
Nick
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2005-01-08 16:15
My point was that we have to define what an overhaul actually is. It seems that most of us at least have a clue what it is[ deleted. mark C.]
Gordon wrote:
******"If all other aspects of a clarinet were in excellent condition to last reliably well into the future except for the pads - perhaps with thin, brittle membranes as has been common on top pro new - then the 'overhaul' needed - in this case a repad ONLY - to get the clarinet into top condition, could indeed take only an hour, with the speed, efficiency, and precision that experience brings.******
Ok, if the repad only needed than why on earth you call it the "Overhaul".
It's a REPAD! Get it?
Gordon wrote:
******"To overhaul an old, neglected instrument with wobbling posts, pivot slop, rust in pivot tubes, chips out of tone hole edges, wobbling centre tenon, loose tenon corks, mouldy body, and rusted springs....."*****
In my book it's called RESTORATION and not the overhaul.
I took 2 year woodwind repair and piano tuning and repair course in Europe at the time I was studying clarinet in music conservatory there. So I might have slightly different perspective on these things.
[ You all can have different ideas as to what constitutes an overhaul on different instruments. As long as the repairer is clear as to what that means who the heck cares? I'm sure both Gordon and Vytas consider themselves excellent repairers - we don't have "repair cookoffs" - so let each other alone. This kind of post is totally uncalled for since it accomplishes nothing except some sort of spitting contest between two adults. Mark C. ]
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2005-01-08 16:21)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hartt
Date: 2005-01-08 16:46
Marcello;
you may consider looking into John Butler Instrument Restoration, a BB Sponsor.
http://www.cork-and-pad.woodwind.org/
John has clarinets sent to him from throughout the US, including symphony players.
His pricing is very reasonable and top notch workmanship.
He's done 6 or 7 R13's of mine and an eefer or 2, and a good amount of add on business from local players who've examined/played mine.......all totally satisfied
Give him a call, a very pleasant fellow to deal with.
regards
dennis
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-01-08 20:42
An overhaul could indeed take 8 hours, as somebody suggested, depending on the condition of the specific instrument, but for me, very rarely.
Vytas, my point was - I thought clearly expressed - that 'overhaul' means different things to different instruments in the hands of different technicians.
What it means to you is by no means a universal meaning, and assumptions should not be made that everybody else has to conform to the particular restricted meaning you attach to the word.
The meaning given in my Oxford dictionary is pretty broad, and is not at conflict with the points that I made!
"Overhaul v.t. Take to pieces in order to examine; examine condition of (and repair if necessary);
"Overhaul n. Thorough examination (with repairs if necessary).
I am weary of the delete-worthy personal abuse you fire in my direction. Is it possible we could keep to rational discussion?
Post Edited (2005-01-14 03:04)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ron b
Date: 2005-01-08 22:05
Shops in my area sorta make up what an overhaul or a re-pad is as they talk to you. Because of this a lot of folks who are out getting estimates are pretty confused by the time they get around to contacting me.
I've found a convenient way to handle this by explaining my services and prices "up front" to my customers in writing. I made up a one page price list, one for brass and one for woodwind. I list, by instrument, the services I'm able to provide, such as: individual pad, spring replacement, play condition only, complete re-pad, restoration... below that I have a description in paragraph form (plain English) of what each term means. Whether they use the information to negotiate with another tech or choose me to do the job, they seem happy to have gained the insight.
More often than not, possibly from talking to pressure-oriented sales pitchers, they only need a "play-condition" when they came here convinced they needed a full blown "restoration".
I've posted about this before and I'm no nearer a remedy [for the high pressure practice] now than I was then. In the meantime I just go about minding my own business as best I'm able.
- ron b -
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Covalaga
Date: 2005-01-08 22:31
I agree that the cost of 'overhaul' should be in proportion to what is actaully needed. A reputable repairer wont take liberties in charging unnecessary work just for the sake of it. Whoever you decide to repair your clarinet, ask around and get the best---he will be worth every penny of the cost.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gardini
Date: 2005-01-10 22:51
I would second John Butler. I send horns all the way from Alaska to Texas. His "overhaul" had my clarinet playing better than ever.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2005-01-13 16:46
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
****"Sure, and overhaul could indeed take 8 hours, depending on the condition of the specific instrument, but for me, very rarely."****
It took more than 40 hours for the giant/genius in the repair business Mr. Hans Moennig to overhaul/set up a new clarinet to the standards of great players such as McLane, Bonade, McGinnis Harold Wright and Robert Marcellus etc..
What's your analytical explanation for this? Was he just too slow?
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: avincel
Date: 2005-01-13 17:20
I recently bought a 1950's LeBlanc Dymanique overhauled by Vytas Krass. I could not be more pleased--- the wood, the keywork, pads, adjustment, etc are all top notch.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ron b
Date: 2005-01-13 18:53
I'm aware that the last question above has been directed to Gordon but other's replies may, I'm supposing, contribute to the informational nature of this thread.
I'm at liberty to guess that 99% of all techs the world over have never heard of Mr. Moennig or his methods. Yet, somehow, most of them do a very good job of servicing your clarinet for you in eight hours or less and guarantee their work for a year. At my present ability it rarely requires more than six hours to re-pad, re-cork and re-adjust a clarinet to peak mechanical performance. If other side issues cannot be dealt with in less than two hours the instrument is indeed in very bad shape.
- r b -
Post Edited (2005-01-13 18:56)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Claritech
Date: 2005-01-13 21:24
The reason why it took Hans Moennig 40 hrs or so to do a clarinet is that he approached it as if he were building a clarinet from scratch.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-01-14 01:16
If a technician took 40 hours these days for a typical involved overhaul, then he would soon starve.
Perhaps I could attempt to explain why there may be quite large discrepancies in repair time between technicians:
I and other technicians, use a fair bit of equipment that did not exist in Moennig's day. It is common for specialised equipment to reduce the time for an operation say 10 to 100 times quicker.
A 5 second swipe with my dental handpiece with one of a selection of hundreds of different 'tips' can complete an operation that could easily take 10 minutes without such equipment.
I, like many technicians who must work with high efficiency to earn a living, have made a wide variety of my own specialised equipment, all to make specific tasks a LOT quicker. My personal investment in time and 'plant' in order to make this gear in the past is huge. Few repair technicians have such extensive equipment available. I know nothing about what equipment technicians of old may or may not have thought of making and made.
It is also possible that the work Moennig did was not so much what we might now call an overhaul, but complete rearrangement of the acoustic design package of an instrument. This is, indeed, like starting manufacture from scratch. Attending to the acoustic compromises in instrument design is a completely different realm from attending to the precision and reliability of the mechanical function aspects of an instrument.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-01-14 07:02
It seems that Moennig began with the assumption that the manufacturer had made a poor job of acoustic design. And that may have been valid.
I would like to believe that many of today's models have some pretty good compromises of acoustic design sorted out, especially with CAD-CAM technology available to them to fine tune acoustic design, and quickly and accurately replicate appropriate tone hole placement and undercutting.
A little optimism doesn't hurt, but perhaps I am dreaming.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
