 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Mark
Date: 2000-01-22 03:03
This clarinet looks like it may be very old, but I am not sure. It has stamped on it 1801....could this be the date it was manufactured. Does anyone have any information on this or know where I could go to find it. Thank you...
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Author: Mark
Date: 2000-01-22 03:25
On one end it's marked "Made in France", and on the other end it has some kink of symbol, with D. Noblet, DN. Then it has 1801 stamped in rather large type. Thanks...Mark
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-01-22 12:47
Describe the symbol (this is very important in figuring out the exact make of clarinet and sometimes the approximate years it was made) and the lettering: Is it a round mark? Is the lettering in cursive?
I'm not sure I can actually ID this one with confidence (It is probably a DEnis Noblet, but the "Made in France" is throwing it off; most clarinets of the middle/late 19th century, of which D. Noblet would be, would say "A Paris", the true French way, not "Made in Paris", which would indicate a later date.
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Author: J. Butler
Date: 2000-01-22 13:29
A common older Noblet emblem is round with a lyre at the top. In the cirlce is stamped D.N. Noblet with the "D" and "N" stamped on top of each other. The next stage I believe was a pointed emblem with the same characatures. I think both to be after WWII, but can't be certain. Does the clarinet have plated keys or does it have German silver keys? That would also help to date the piece.
J. Butler
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-01-22 13:50
Also what is the key system on this clarinet? Is it Boehm, Albert, or something else? If it is Boehm, it would *not* have been made in 1801. The Boehm system was not applied to the clarinet until the middle 1800s or so and did not really start gaining ground among players until the early 1900s.
If it is Boehm key system, my guess is that the 1801 is a model number or serial number.
Another thing to look at is the four side trill keys on the upper joint. If they are the inline "jump" style rather than the offset style, then I think that puts it post World War II. Inline "jump" refers to the style where the pad cups are in a straight line with the shaft of the key and the shafts of the other keys are contoured to "jump" over the pad. The offset style (the one most commonly seen) has the pad cups off to the side of the shaft.
D. Noblet is the original name of the Leblanc company. Around 1900 or so (check Leblanc's web page for more exact date), Noblet (who had no heirs) passed the company to Mr. Leblanc. The D. Noblet name seems to have been used for awhile thereafter and Noblet is still used for the intermediate models.
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Author: Mark
Date: 2000-01-22 16:08
The "MADE ID FRANCE" is stamped on the mouth-piece end, in fairly small type.
The 1801 is in fairly large type and the numbers are slightly offset. This 1801 is on a band or ring on the clarinet where the bell attaches to the shaft, although it is all on piece.
On the bell of the instrument, the symbol looks like a lyre or the piece that holds the sheets of music. Next there is an ob-long circle made of dashes with D.NOBLET PARIS in the middle of the circle. Below this is a D and N stamped on top of each other.
The keys appear to be made of silver but I am not 100% sure.
I am not sure what what kink of key system it has, unfortunately I don't know a whole lot about this.
All of the letering is printed and not cursive.
Thanks.....Mark
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-01-22 19:15
Mark wrote:
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The "MADE ID FRANCE" is stamped on the mouth-piece end, in fairly small type.
The 1801 is in fairly large type and the numbers are slightly offset. This 1801 is on a band or ring on the clarinet where the bell attaches to the shaft, although it is all on piece.
On the bell of the instrument, the symbol looks like a lyre or the piece that holds the sheets of music. Next there is an ob-long circle made of dashes with D.NOBLET PARIS in the middle of the circle. Below this is a D and N stamped on top of each other.
The keys appear to be made of silver but I am not 100% sure.
I am not sure what what kink of key system it has, unfortunately I don't know a whole lot about this.
All of the letering is printed and not cursive.
Thanks.....Mark
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You say the "Made in France" is on the mouthpiece end. Is it actually on the mouthpiece itself or the piece just below it. Oftentimes the mouthpiece is made by an entirely different company.
Is the band where "1801" is stamped made of metal or ivory?
As far as key systems here's a quick reference:
Boehm: 4 (or sometimes more) keys for right hand little finger on lower joint. 3 (or sometimes more) keys for left hand little finger on lower joint. 4 side trill keys on the side of the upper joint. Three rings on lower joint. On upper joint, ring on thumb hole plus rings on at least two of the finger holes.
Albert: 2 keys for right hand little finger on lower joint. 2 keys for left hand little finger on lower joint. 3 side trill keys on the side of the upper joint. Generally a total of 13 keys. At least two rings on lower joint. Zero to two rings on upper joint. No ring on thumb hole.
Various older systems: 2 or fewer side trill keys on upper joint. These have anywhere from 11 keys on down. Typically no rings on either upper or lower joint. Bands between joints typically not made of metal. Metal keys may be a "salt spoon" type shape or on even older ones they are flat.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-01-22 19:30
Mark wrote:
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... The keys appear to be made of silver but I am not 100% sure...
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My guess is that the keys are probably made of an alloy referred to as "nickle silver" (also called "german silver"). This is a nickle alloy that contains no silver and there are several similar but different alloys. Silver tarnishes a blackish color. Nickle silver is more tarnish resistant but it can turn dull and over time can tarnish a sort of brownish color.
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Author: Mark
Date: 2000-01-22 20:55
The MADE IN FRANCE is on the instrument itself, about in inch up from the end. Between the end and the MADE IN FRANCE it looks like there is some cork, possibly to hold the mouthpiece on???.
The band where the 1801 is stamped is make of metal as the whole clarinet is. The clarinet is just one piece, except for the mouthpiece does seperate from the unit.
Dee, by the description you gave of the type of key system it has, I believe it's probably Boehm.
Thanks again....Mark
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Author: J. Butler
Date: 2000-01-22 23:39
Your clarinet is probably a Noblet made in the 30's to 40's. The keys are German or nickel silver as Dee indicated the 1801 is either the model number OR Ithink the serial number.
J. Butler
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-01-23 00:52
Now we are getting somewhere. This instrument was *not* manufactured in 1801. The Boehm keywork eliminates that possibility. The greatest probability is that this is a serial number.
The fact that it is metal is useful in helping to get into the ballpark on age. The heyday of the metal clarinets was the 1920s, 1930s and early 1940s. They were made even earlier and later. I have seen photos of the 1910s that included metal clarinets and Leblanc (Noblet) is known to have made metal clarinets into the 1960s although most manufacturers dropped them from their lines in the 1940s.
I also have a Noblet metal clarinet in my little "mini collection". The logo is a rectangle with rounded corners. The first line says Noblet (not D. Noblet) and the second line says FRANCE. Just below the cork it says MADE IN FRANCE. The serial number is 1267. Now I do not know if Leblanc used continuous serialization or not but I don't think they did. The D. Noblet should be earlier than one marked Noblet although the serial number is higher, but I could be wrong. All the Leblanc made instruments that I have ever seen always had a serial number.
From examining my own Noblet, the keys on mine are indeed nickle silver as there is NO sign of plating wear through. At one time, this alloy was popular for keywork on intermediate and higher grade instruments. The horn itself is very heavily plated and I think but am not sure that it is nickle plating. There is only one spot (the left hand third finger hole) where there is any sign of plating wear through.
Now as I mentioned earlier, nickle silver will tarnish and this can make an instrument look much older than it is.
The cork is for a metal "barrel" that fits onto the body of the clarinet and holds the mouthpiece. Metal clarinets took standard clarinet mouthpieces. If you are missing this barrel, it will be difficult to find another as they are no longer made and each brand and model was different in length and possibly even in diameter. Although if you wanted to restore it, there is always the option of having one custom made. You might even get lucky and find a "junker" somewhere and get a barrel.
Some other details would be helpful. For example, does it have leather pads? Although pads do get replaced periodically, if it has been sitting around virtually untouched it may have some of the original pads. Leather pads would tend to put it in the earlier quarter of the 1900s although some musicians did favor them for a long time thereafter and they are even obtainable today. Do you have a case for it? If you do and think that it is probably original, details on the case styling can also help in deducing the probable age. For example, from the styling of my case, I would guess that mine is from the early 1940s or late 1930s. Since I have no way to know if the case is original, this will always be a guess but the serial number is so low so I doubt that it would be one of ones from the 1960s.
If I had to guess, yours might be from the 1930s. *BUT* this is just a *guess*.
While the bulk of metal clarinets were made for the student and marching band trade (and as a result had the usual student grade instrument problems), Leblanc's Noblet line and the D. Noblet line were at least intermediate quality instruments.
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Author: Mark
Date: 2000-01-23 02:41
Wow...sounds like your is very similar to mine....Thanks for all of the information you provided.
I do have the barrel and the mouthpieces, as well as the piece that holds the sheets of music.
As for the case, I would guess that it's the original. It may be made from some type of wood, and then has some kind of brown wrapping on the wood, and had a leather handle. On the cover it has a patch with D and N on top of each other, then Noblet in the middle and on the bottom PARIS
The inside of the case has burgandy fur.
None of the pads a leather, it looks like they are made of felt or missing completely.
In your opinion, do you think I should have this appraised for it's value?? If so who would I go to to get the appraisal?.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-01-23 04:36
Mark wrote:
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Wow...sounds like your is very similar to mine....Thanks for all of the information you provided.
I do have the barrel and the mouthpieces, as well as the piece that holds the sheets of music.
As for the case, I would guess that it's the original. It may be made from some type of wood, and then has some kind of brown wrapping on the wood, and had a leather handle. On the cover it has a patch with D and N on top of each other, then Noblet in the middle and on the bottom PARIS
The inside of the case has burgandy fur.
None of the pads a leather, it looks like they are made of felt or missing completely.
In your opinion, do you think I should have this appraised for it's value?? If so who would I go to to get the appraisal?.
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Other than the rare specimens like the Haynes professional metal clarinet (very rare & was made by the Haynes of flute fame), metal clarinets have no significant monetary value. Due to the huge number of student clarinets made, some of extremely poor quality and intonation, metal clarinets gained a bad reputation. Plus there are lots of metal clarinets hiding out in attics, etc. that are starting to surface as the people who owned them pass on and their things are sold off. At any one time on eBay, around 10% of the clarinets listed are metal.
I got my metal Noblet on the eBay auction for about $50. Generally the student grade ones go for even less. In the antique/junktique stores, the ones I've seen were under $75.
Most appraisers will be unfamiliar with metal clarinets or will be biased by the "everyone knows that metal clarinets were no good" mindset that was the result of the cheap student ones.
Since Noblet is one of the better brands, my recommendation is to get it fixed up into playing condition just to have a functioning piece of clarinet history. Now and then take it out to play to amaze your acquaintances and astonish the younger players, most of whom will never have seen a metal clarinet.
PLEASE don't let anybody turn this into a lamp. For some reason, there are people who like to do this.
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Author: Willie
Date: 2000-01-23 04:41
Sounds like you have one of the older better metal models. Don,t let some one talk you into making a lamp out of it. I'd clean it up and have it padded. Although leather pads work better with metal clarinets, mine are all fitted with regular skin pads for econo reasons, but then I don't play them every day either. I recomend not using silver dips as found in the grocery and jewelry stores as the acid, though mild, will eat up the steel springs (learned this one the hard way). Most metal clarinets were cheap but heavy duty student models and stamped out by the thousands, but there were some that were made, I guess with a little more pride, that had a decent tone and tuning. Of the three I have, only one sounds good. The other two sound like crap, but are pretty to look at. The Noblet line is one of the better makes and intonation is not bad if set up properly.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2000-01-23 18:14
I agree with the above after we found out its a METAL. I restored an old Gunkel [to play poorly], and gave it to a mid-higher in exchange for a barrel-less garage-sale one, but found that the barrel from a junker did fit [to a degree] so I still have a non-lamp display, new students are always amazed! Don
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Author: Mark
Date: 2000-01-24 00:12
I would like to thank everyone who helped me on this. I have printed all of your responses and put them in the case with the clarinet, so someday my children will have some idea what it is. Thanks again.....Mark
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Author: greenguy13
Date: 2012-08-14 02:55
So I own a black, wood clarinet and the brand logo is an oval containing the words "NOBLET" above "PARIS" (all capital letters). On top of the oval is a lyre containing a "D." Below the oval is a wide "D" superimposed over an "N." Model # 905B is stamped on the bottom, posterior of each of the joints and "MADE IN FRANCE" is stamped on the top posterior of the upper joint. Does anyone know anything about this clarinet like how old it is or level of quality could be expected or what it might be worth? The barrel that is currently with the clarinet is plastic and does not seem to be original to the clarinet. I read the above thread and I can say that I believe the keys are Boehm, plated, and inline "jump" style.
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2012-08-15 14:07
may be a Noblet 27 or 40 from the 1950s or 1960s. see:
www.clarinetperfection.com for more info
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Author: greenguy13
Date: 2012-08-15 14:50
Hey thanks - the link with pictures I found on this website would confirm your proposal. It's looks practically identical to my clarinet!
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